Episode 97: Howard Cogan

Announcer: The Producers, featuring the most respected international talent in the world of audio production and voiceover. Radio, TV, film, and online. In-depth interviews and industry insights, putting you on the inside. This is The Producers Podcast with Ryan Dream.

Ryan: Thank you so much for checking it out. Glad you are there. While you might be downloading this and you know that my website is RyanDream.com and ProducersPodcast.com, as mentioned, takes you directly to the podcast. You might have gotten this from some older link, so again, I think I mentioned it in the last episode or so, but I did just migrate everything to the more simple RyanDream.com. So if you have any favorites or links you saved to special episodes, whatever, whatever your link is, we've made it so you can just simply replace the Ryan on the Radio with Ryan Dream. Everything else should work, so. I don't know, quick note on that just in case that matters to you. If not and you're just like, dude, I get it in iTunes, stop bothering me, I'll download them when it downloads them. Alright, great, that's cool too. let me do upcoming real fast. We are at— what am I, episode 97? Imminent to the century mark of the podcast, and I wanted to do something special for that. However, it might get delayed just a touch, or I might do the special episode in the like 101, 102 range, because it is pretty arbitrary, right? Yeah. the point is, I already have another massive talent coming up, for the next episode. Chad Erickson, big-time voice talent. And again, one of those guys that's becoming so busy that just slicing out, you know, 30 to 45 minutes of his time is very difficult. We are gonna get that interview done quickly, so I should be able to turn around another podcast pretty fast here. It'll be 2 big-time radio and network promo voices in a row. Crazy. Yeah. Also gonna do a couple of preview episodes for the Imaging Days that comes up the very beginning of October, first week of October. It's a great time. I've talked about it on this podcast before. I love it. you just get tons and tons of talent in the same room. We're all imaging people. I don't know, that, that certain attitude that comes with some conferences where you've got the big, you know, the OMs and the VPs and the SVPs and the EVPs, and they all feel like they own the world and You're like, ugh, so much attitude. It just doesn't exist at the Imaging Days, so it's a great time. Plus it's in Amsterdam, which isn't a terrible place to have to go to, to get to a conference, I tell you what. so hopefully you get to attend, but I will do a couple of preview episodes as I mentioned. Try to get somebody from the States and I'll try to get somebody international to kind of hype what they're going to be doing at the show and talk about their perspective on the Imaging Days. Again, that's October. I'll have a big link on my website that you can check out. That'll be on there shortly. And theimagingdays.com, @theimagingdays on Twitter. And of course, if you want to check me out, I'm @rdreen on basically everything. You can probably just look for Ryan Dreen on everything. Although I tweet sometimes, Facebook almost never, Instagram even less. Snapchat, I think I have 2. I think I've Snapchatted twice. Yeah, the youngsters in my life were like, Yeah, this is all we do now. Facebook is for old peo— it's basically for dead people. It's not even just old people, like, you have to be dead to be using Facebook, so. And Instagram is so yesterday, Twitter is so a week ago, but Snapchat's where it's at right now. Yeah, I don't get it. I don't really like it that much, but I'm on there, so. Okay, that's enough. Howard Cogan, the guest. Howard Cogan, the voice of Jack. Most people who are affiliated with radio will absolutely know him as that signature sound. Also— Jack. Lately, it's just been one after another. I hear him pop up. He's been on ABC for quite a long time now, but then I heard him on Fox, hearing his stuff on FX, which I really like that read. That's just some cool stuff happening over there. We get into all that in the interview. Let me play you just some quick samples of his work to just refamiliarize you, I guess, with him, even though you should probably get a good idea of who he is. And then we'll dive right into the interview with the one and the only Howard Cogan. Well, enjoy this bunch of songs in a row now on Jack FM before the inevitable day when they become sentient and rise to destroy us all. What, too dark? Wednesday, only a new Modern Family Thanksgiving. Hold on, no one leaves this house without a bag of meat. Comes with some unusual dressing. You're really judging me right now when you look like a hooker at Comic-Con? And more than one bird. Oh good, you're back. Can you grab the underwater camera? Modern Family, ABC Wednesday. You're the worst. The all-new season premieres Wednesday, August 31st, only on FXX. When you want to date an old flame— I want the boyfriend experience. I'm ready to give you the boyfriend experience. You gotta turn up the heat. What's sexier, you think, Australian or Spanish accent? Neither, please. Why don't I go for both? Grandfathered, all-new Tuesday on Fox. Modern Family has brought you the most amazing finales. I'm pregnant. You may now kiss your husband. And on this Wednesday's season finale, we can only reveal this. I'm gonna take it. Modern Family, followed by the Black-ish season finale, ABC Wednesday.

Ryan: All right. Another interview with somebody who's been highly requested. A mumbling way to start this, Howard, but what I'm trying to say is lots of people wanted me to talk to you. Howard Kogan, everyone. Thank you for joining me on the podcast.

Howard Cogan: And those are what, the debt collectors or?

Ryan: Yeah, they're the fans, man. They're the fans. If I had to, you know, before I even dive into this, if I had to say one thing about you, it would simply be unique, original, you know, whatever encompasses that feeling in a talent. I feel like there's a lot of people that have a unique quality, but with you, for sure, you're not really trying to be anyone but yourself. Is that a fair way to say it?

Howard Cogan: Damn, I thought I was trying to be like Scott Shannon or— no.

Ryan: Yeah, right.

Howard Cogan: Look, I'm a horrible imitator. I mean, I'm one of those guys that can barely do an English accent, you know? So my talents don't lend themselves to being a great parrot. So I kind of have no choice but to just be myself. Sometimes I may in my head be thinking I'm trying to sound like somebody else, but it still comes out as me. So I don't know if it's more of a talent or an accident.

Ryan: Yeah, I think maybe— well, if it's both, it's good. If it's one or the other, it's fine. You know, for anybody— I kind of went through who you are in the intro before I pulled you on here. I played a little bit of your audio as well. I'm going to say you're one of those people I have on this show that just about everyone will have heard at some point. But again, the voice of Jack, and I almost want to start with that story in just a second, created a personality for radio that is unlike any other and is very rare to have happen in that manner. So in fact, we will just start with that. I've seen a little bit of writing by you about it. I know it was sort of a demo or a spec is kind of how it all came about.

Howard Cogan: Yeah. Initially, I was a jock originally, like many of us on radio. And that comes to an abrupt end many times throughout your career. The formats change or whatever. And I thought, I'll try and do voiceover. And it was a horrible attempt at it at first. And I wasn't good at it. And you don't just open a microphone and suddenly know how to do it.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Howard Cogan: So I had to go back and work at it. And eventually I got an agent. And eventually I started booking some beer commercials. I was in Canada. at the time, and I would do like Molson's or beer commercials up there on television. And one day I pitched a friend of mine who was at a station and he said, hey, we're gonna change formats and maybe you wanna try some imaging. And just so you know, when I was a jock, I was the guy, I would find ways out of the building so the producers didn't see me so I wouldn't ever have to read a commercial. Like, I was like, I never wanna do this.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: But I was like, yeah, I'll try. And I said, you know, here's the thing. These guys are spending millions on these television ads, you know, using me, and using me as a character that's sort of really apathetic and removed and flat and monotone. And, you know, all of the radio imaging is just the biggest station and the best and over the top and hype. And, you know, maybe we could try that approach that these ad agencies are already using into radio. And eventually that— found its way to Jack FM in Vancouver, which was the very first station, and it took off with— I think they were number 1 within 3 weeks. It was unheard of. And that momentum just carried itself through a series of sort of happy accidents across the border and into many other markets. And that's how it started.

Ryan: Yeah, that Vancouver station. And I mean, I sort of intimated at it, but was it really— was it literally they were maybe planning a station, they didn't quite know exactly what they wanted. So, were you effectively told to just sort of do the lines, and you created the Jack just kind of 'cause that's who you were?

Howard Cogan: It was sort of collaborative. I mean, you know, I launched the Vancouver station. Ironically, I was living in Toronto at the time, so we launched it secretly out of Toronto. It was owned by Rogers, and we did it out of their main station head office in Toronto over the Christmas holidays. And Greg Stevens was the original writer of it all in Toronto. And he would write most of that. We'd sort of collaborate. And I don't even think I was very good at it when we initially started. I think it was just like every read was the same and trying to be the same guy. Eventually, I learned some acting skills and tried to make it more of a human character. But when we launched it, it was a bunch of really smart-assy lines. And I think we were still fleshing out the character. I don't think— the whole persona really got nailed until it came to Los Angeles. You know, I think once Kevin Weatherly and the crew in LA, you know, the guys that were already running KROQ, once they got their hands on it, I think it sort of found its place and became more marketable and more human and all of that stuff.

Ryan: That's cool. Yeah, my next question was actually gonna be a timeline. So, about how long was that from when you first started it in Vancouver as almost a— an experiment to when it made it to LA? About how much time are we talking about there?

Howard Cogan: Well, it went Vancouver, I'd say months later, went to Calgary. So we had 2 in Canada. I think the first— then it was Gary Wall hooking up with Pat Bon. Pat Bon was a consultant up in Canada. Gary was consulting, I think, at a station in Calgary. The 2 of them teamed up. Gary had a lot of contacts in the United States. Gary, of course, programmed, you know, legendary stations in San Diego and New York and— knew a lot of people. So, Garry was responsible for bringing the format to the United States and getting traction for it. So, I think the first station was actually in Denver, and it was on a shit shoo-in signal from Denver that did okay, though, even in spite of that. And then I think Dallas was— it might have been like Jackson, Mississippi, and Dallas. It started to happen quite quickly.

Ryan: So, maybe—

Howard Cogan: 6 months to less than a year, I think, from Vancouver. I mean, my timeline may be warped now and compressed, but I think that's what it was.

Ryan: Yeah, and that's kind of what I was getting at. It took you about 6 months to go from soup to nuts or whatever, but to really get it to where you're like, okay, I'm acting now. I've got the levels of the character. You kind of have some boundaries, how far you can go with it and what really worked. Also, sounds like—

Howard Cogan: I think too, when I got to LA, our first producer there, you may know him, Jake Kaplan, who's now doing AMP in Los Angeles. Jake was young, and he was brought in to do Jack. And I remember I would do sessions with Jake, and he'd go, dude, come on, you know, amp it up a little. Like, you know, every sweeper can't sound the same. And, you know, he would ride me, and eventually we just sort of found the groove for it. And I think unfortunately, you know, there are still people today who think what they heard, you know, 12 years ago is still what's on the air. And I think it's evolved quite a bit.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah, that's cool. I don't want to keep this whole thing about Jack because you're doing so many other things that I really enjoy, but there are a lot of big Jack fans out there that just kind of like this entire evolution. What have you seen happen to the format in general? I mean, I can talk about it in terms of radio, you know, numbers, etc., and markets that have kind of come on and come off, but to you, what has happened to the Jack persona or the format in general over the years?

Howard Cogan: It's been an interesting experiment. There's been nothing like this in radio.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: TV guys are used to having a third-party supply program. If you're NBC, CBS, Fox, you know, there's all these outside producers. They supply them with shows, and that's the way the business works. The radio business wants to run everything themselves. And suddenly we came along as sort of a third party, and it's been an interesting partnership. I mean, you know, none of us own these transmitters. We don't have a right to tell anybody what to do.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Howard Cogan: It is their stations. But on this second— on the other hand, we are trying to run a brand that is supposed to represent certain things. So I think, unfortunately, in many markets, we are at the mercy of the program directors. And if you get a guy in a market who doesn't get it, doesn't like it, I think it's very difficult. And I think it flies off the reservation. And it's like a recipe. I mean, you take a little salt out, you take some sugar out, next thing you know, you can't figure out how to make the cake anymore. So, that's been the struggle with this format. It's been an experiment, and it's succeeded tremendously in many markets, and it's failed miserably in other markets. I think the product is fantastic. I think it should succeed in most markets. I mean, sometimes there's not really a hole for it based on the landscape of the market, but— I, you know, even today we're still succeeding. You know, markets like Los Angeles, Kevin Weatherly, I have a tremendous amount of respect for. Even in our darkest days, he didn't flush it all down the toilet. He fixed it and, you know, would tweak it or move the music up. Too much '80s, more '90s, or whatever he needed to do. So, the markets that stuck with it have had success over many, many years, and others Aye, aye, aye. I mean, what do you do?

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: You know?

Ryan: It almost sounds like when they try to make it too radio, it ends up damaging it, 'cause it's just really not a radio, you know, as we— a traditional radio product.

Howard Cogan: No, we have a specific brand, and we have a specific character, and we have a specific approach, and we don't take ourselves seriously, and all of that stuff. And, you know, a lot of guys don't understand. And sometimes, you know, we'll see them go into a market and say, well, we need more females. Guys don't really understand, for the most part, how to program to women. They think they know what women like, but they end up treating women like 6-year-olds, which becomes insulting and degrading. And I think, you know, Amy Poehler comes along and Tina Fey, and they have a great sense of humor and they're edgy. And ironically, when we did many years ago test this imaging in a room full of people, it actually played better to the females than the males. And I think a lot of program directors, as soon as they think they need to skew more female or something, think this imaging is dangerous and would be horrific to their product. And I think they misread it. I think if you look back to high school, who did the women date? They always dated the bad boy. You know, that was the guy who got all the chicks. So, I think there's a bit of a problem where a lot of times, Men come in, try to program to women, they misread it, they misunderstand Jack, they misinterpret what we're all about. We're not there trying to be mean and offensive. We're just trying to have a good time and not take ourselves seriously.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: And even the slogan, you know, playing what we want. I mean, people are like, what is that all about? Playing what we want? What about the audience? And I'm like, well, listen, it's about freedom. And the audience understood that. It was the guys in the radio industry that didn't. It's about, you know, if I had to do it over again, maybe it would be playing whatever we want as the freedom to play whatever we want. People like that. They embrace it. But it became, for some guys, about, well, us versus them and the audience and the guys at the station, which it had nothing to do with, you know?

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: It's more about the freedom. We play what we want and, you know, here you go. And, you know, there's a wink in it and there's like, hey, we're— We know it's good, or we hope it is. So there, we'll keep playing what we want.

Ryan: That's a good place to cap that portion. It's a great brand, though. I wanted to get to other elements of your profession. You talk about the first— actually, I'm not positive this is your first promo job, but back when that Cavemen show came on and you were doing some ABC network promo reads for that, and then you kind of went, and then a few weeks later, It caved, I think you wrote.

Howard Cogan: It died. Yes, they— I don't know if people remember that, but the GEICO cavemen commercials, they said, let's make a show out of it, and it lasted 6 weeks.

Ryan: is there— well, I wanted to ask you about sort of the aftermath of that, but any other funny bits you can tell us about that whole deal? Was that your first promo job? Was it exciting and then, you know, deflating? Just give us a little more on the inside of that.

Howard Cogan: It was not my first promo job. My first promo job was in Canada. I was the backup announcer for CTV in Canada. Canada. So—

Ryan: Oh, well, that's so cool.

Howard Cogan: So I learned everything there. I was, you know, I had to do the news and, you know, 50 people dead and bombs and fires, and it was horrible. And then I got to do— and then on American Idol, and, you know.

Ryan: Right.

Howard Cogan: And so I really learned about, you know, diversity and range in that gig up in Canada. And then here, yeah, I mean, ABC called me one day and said, hey, we have the show, and they wanted to do something different and unique. And it was caveman luck. And, you know, when you're the voice, you don't have control over if the show's gonna last or not.

Ryan: No, of course not.

Howard Cogan: You're just the promo voice, and you hope it lasts. But, so it didn't. And— but they were kind, and they called me back probably a year or two later when they released a new show that they were calling Modern Fam— or it's still called Modern Family. And, and they gave me a second chance, and that show did much better.

Ryan: So that's kind of the part I wanted to let people know People, or pull the curtain back on a little bit. So, I mean, obviously you've got the chops, you're doing it up in Canada and all that, but you get, you know, the big ABC gig. That had to feel pretty good. It collapses pretty quickly. In that year and a half to 2 years, you know, what's the mindset like? Are you then just hustling constantly to kind of get back there, or did other work flood in because of it, or were you just shut down? You know, just let us in a little bit on the process.

Howard Cogan: Okay, let me tell you how I started my promo career. I started trying to learn how to read promos. And I actually, at CTV, you know how I got that job? I called, and I'm not recommending everybody do this 'cause it probably won't work, but I don't know what prompted me to do it. I called the television network, the receptionist, and I said, who hires like the voiceover people for the promo department? And she went, one moment, sir, and put me through to somebody in the promo department. And I said, hey, I'm, I have a demo. Who can I send it to? And they happened to say, we're actually auditioning a bunch of people right now. We need a backup voice. And I sent them the demo. They liked it. I went in about 3 or 4 times and kept reading stuff. And then I eventually got hired for that. But that's how I got the first promo gig.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Howard Cogan: And the rest of them, I don't know. I mean, it's such a— these television networks are like governments. It's like, you know, you just can't call the president. and get them on the phone unless you're somebody high up in the government. But I mean, normal citizens can't call. And that's what these television networks are like. And you don't even know who hires you some of the time. My case, I think Jack might've leveraged to the ABC gig where they listened to it, they liked the station in LA, and they said, hey, maybe that's something different we could try for our promos.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: And then once you get on, you know, I went to Fox last fall because the guy, one of the guys that worked at ABC moved over to Fox and he liked what I did on Modern Family, so he brought me over there. But—

Ryan: I heard that. I remember thinking, ooh, Howard's on Fox now. Cool.

Howard Cogan: But that's how it works. I mean, it's such a— it's very, you know, your first gig is your most difficult. I mean, it's, it's like you're starting from zero. And you have to get something. Once you get something, you can sort of leverage it. Or if you have an agent, they could say, well, you did this, you might be good for that. But it's tough and it's changing. It's easier because there used to be one guy on each network, and good luck being the one guy.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: Now they seem to brand the network. Even the big networks are branded by genres or even individual shows. So there may be— a dozen of us on ABC, you know, and same with Fox. So, it's easier to get in, but it won't be as lucrative because maybe you're only doing 1 or 2 shows. I think— somebody told me, and I don't know if it's true, but CBS will say, you know, the announcers only get 2 shows, you know, and they're not on at the same time. We'll use 1 guy for 2 shows and that's it. They want different branding everywhere. Whereas NBC's using Reno, And, you know, he's branding almost everything except the dramas. So, they all have different approaches, and some are easier than others to get a break in. And then there's the whole tier of cable channels, you know, and those seem to brand mostly by the entire network. Sometimes they use different voices on promos. So, it's difficult. I think you need an agent to kind of open the doors as to know where the opportunities are, especially in the US.

Ryan: Sure.

Howard Cogan: In small other countries, maybe, you know, it's a little easier. smaller and you could contact the actual television stations directly.

Ryan: I was gonna say, I think I've enjoyed a lot of the different styles you've put out there. For somebody that maybe some people might have thought, oh, well, he's Jack. I mean, you know, that's it. I think you have a lot of range. I think you have surprising range to some people. Let's see here. The Modern Family, I really enjoyed the way that they were sort of branding themselves like that. But then does that lead you to You know, within the ABC ecosystem, or does that lead you to kind of within the promo voice ecosystem?

Howard Cogan: That started, Ryan, that started a long time ago with Don LaFontaine. He was at NBC, and that's where the initial fight over exclusivity started. And nobody wanted to pay for the exclusivity. So Don, I think, was the first guy who started working in multiple networks, and that has since become the ecosystem. NBC, Seems, I don't know, I think Reno is on, I might've heard him on other like CW or something. So I don't think the networks pay for the exclusivity anymore. I don't think they care that much.

Ryan: They don't seem to care. I mean, from my perspective, it doesn't seem like they care. They don't seem to, they don't put importance on it like radio does, for example.

Howard Cogan: No, because it's so different. You're branding individual shows.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: And I guess if radio was gonna, you were trying to draw a comparison, it would be like every promo, you did each promo campaign at a radio station would have different voices. You know, we're gonna use somebody to do our Disney promo, and then we're gonna use somebody else to do the, you know, Justin Bieber concert giveaway, you know, and that type of thinking. And I don't know, I mean, then the station's different all the time, and it's a bit of a different headspace listening to the radio. There seems to be loyalty to the brand of each radio station on a different level than the loyalty to a television network.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Howard Cogan: The loyalty seems to be, you know, to the shows themselves, not the actual network.

Ryan: For sure. You're not binge-watching a network, you're binge-watching a show, right? The FX, I think— have I heard you on FXX as well? But the stuff, some of the shows you've voiced for FX, I've really liked that stuff.

Howard Cogan: The FX, to me, has some of the best, I would say, best creative work in the promo business.

Ryan: I can't disagree.

Howard Cogan: I love the stuff that's coming out of there. And ironically with FX, FX, they're very loose about how they work. Like, they just basically send you, here's, you know, everything we might say in a promo this season, read it. And it's like radio where you just sort of read it, upload it on your server, and they download it and fit it into their promos. They'll go, hey, give us 3 versions, slow, medium, fast, and that kind of thing, and hope it fits.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: And, but FX, they hired me for a show called You're the Worst, And that was, you know, they wanted sort of a slacker, you know, the show speaks for itself, I think, if anybody's seen it.

Ryan: I watched every episode.

Howard Cogan: They wanted that sort of slacker vibe on it, which is risky because, you know, nobody's ever really done that on television before. Everything's kind of, you know, pretty hypey and big and bold. And these guys were just like, you know, you're the worst. That kind of really low-key, approach, which I commend them for.

Ryan: So you are, I guess, and then you have the show on Fox, that was, what's his name, Jesse from—

Howard Cogan: Yeah, that was, John Stamos, a show called Grandfathered. You know, they put a lot into it. But here's the thing too, on a television network like Fox, I think he had 3 or 4 million viewers each week. And, you know, HBO had 4 million viewers on a show, there'd be a parade down the, you know, down the main street of town. But But on Fox, they can't make money with 4 million viewers, so bye-bye. So that got canceled. Rob Lowe's show got canceled.

Ryan: I actually really liked that. I loved Fred Savage and Rob Lowe's show.

Howard Cogan: And that show had a lot of critical acclaim and a really loyal fan base. And it probably could survive on USA or some other network, and maybe it will. But it comes down to how much does Rob Lowe want to work for on a show like that? Because if he's commanding a certain salary, and then the costs of each episode go up, then— So the whole business model is affecting all of that right now. Yeah.

Ryan: And I could do a TV show. But back to you. The sort of getting in the door, you had the first sort of foot in the door, I guess, with The Cavemen, and then a little bit of a delay, but Modern Family's huge. Now you're on multiple networks, multiple shows. Do you feel more comfortable now in that space, I should say? Do you feel like it'll just kind of keep rolling? No. No.

Howard Cogan: Or you don't get to that point?

Ryan: No, you never do.

Howard Cogan: But here's the thing too. Those of you that would do radio imaging, quite often you'll get a retainer.

Ryan: Sure.

Howard Cogan: You know, and you get whatever, and you know maybe you're gonna be working for at least the year. But with television, they do— each time you work for them, it's a SAG or AFTRA contract, meaning the contract is for each individual promo you do. So, they may never call you back, or they could use you for 12 seasons or more. But you don't— so you never know what they're thinking and if they change their mind. And it's not like you're a DJ at a radio station and the program director calls you in the office and has this heart-to-heart talk and says why he has to fire you. I mean, they just never call you again. You're like, well, I worked last Tuesday, and, huh, nothing happening this Tuesday. So, yeah, you really— it's— somehow, it could be torturous. I mean, once you are working, you know pretty well early in the season Hopefully, you'll be okay and you'll ride the season out. You don't know how long the show's gonna last. That's up to the audience, whether they watch it and whether the network pulls the plug or not. And then creatively, they could change management and go, hey, somebody new's here. They want a female voice, or they want somebody else. And so, yeah, no security in that whatsoever. There is great volume and you can make some good money, but you don't feel like, yeah, I've made it. They'll keep calling me. No way.

Ryan: So, you don't get there.

Howard Cogan: Okay.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: No, you don't.

Ryan: Yeah, I'm more interested in the perspective of the VO, obviously. And I think there's some talent out there that people would assume are just absolutely secure. But just based on what you have said and other people I've talked to, I think it's surprisingly less secure, even for the biggest of the big.

Howard Cogan: Well, because, you know, sure, nobody's secure. I mean, look at guys like, you know, legendary guys like Ashton Smith, who was on every movie trailer. You know, and I think guys that have been around a long time like that will tell you, it's gonna ebb and flow. You know, they're gonna get sick of you, and then they're gonna go, hey, what happened to you? And then they bring you back again, and then they get sick of you. You know, you keep going through these cycles. So, I think, you know, you have to be pretty mentally strong to be able to do that. It's not like a job, you know, where you go to work every day and hope they don't fire you. This is sort of, you know, you may never get hired again.

Ryan: Right.

Howard Cogan: you know, each one— each promo could be your last, and you think like that all the time. and then you have to—

Ryan: That's a tough way to go though, isn't it? That's a tough—

Howard Cogan: It is.

Ryan: A tough way to live.

Howard Cogan: It is. It is a tough way to live in that sense. Look, when you're getting the work, it's great, it's fun. It's not like, you know, it's not like lifting heavy boulders or, you know, working in a factory or something. In that sense, it's great. But, you know, look, you got to be available. I've heard horror stories of guys that are, you know, up at Big Bear skiing, which is near LA, And, you know, they couldn't quite make it back in time and they got replaced and lost, you know, $200 grand on a promo campaign they would have been doing, you know. So you need to be constantly available. So it's difficult. I don't take a lot of vacations, and when I do, I take my gear and my rig with me.

Ryan: So, and I wanted to kind of get into your daily grind and the percentage of your work and all that, but are you generally a talent that is always going to be available to voice something no matter where you go? you're gonna have a rig with you? Or do you give yourself any amount of days where you simply unplug from it all?

Howard Cogan: I did last year, maybe, for a week, and that was the first time in maybe 8 years I've done it. Now, I'm not saying I'm a great example of that. I mean, I know other guys are like, screw it, I'm going to Italy. See ya, I'm gone for 2 weeks. They'll have to deal with it. I think it depends on the kind of work you do. I mean, in radio imaging, if I say, guys, I'm off next week, they all take vacations. So, I think everybody can relate to that, and they'll work around you. TV's difficult if you do affiliates. I mean, these guys want their news hits and all of that stuff. That's the worst as far as handcuffs go. And networks, you know, you're putting them in a difficult position. I mean, if you read a promo, and now they need you to tag it out in 3 different versions, it needs your voice. And, you know, they don't— if they have to go and get another guy and recut the whole promo, you're creating work. They have satellite deadlines. They gotta go to the East Coast by a certain time. So.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: So, there's a lot at stake for just reading these things that involve a lot of different people and a lot of moving parts. So, I think being reliable is a huge part, like right up there with talent and what you sound like.

Ryan: Let me ask you, on a show like Modern Family, 'cause, you know, a lot of the big network shows, they'll be on in their season, but then in the summer, they'll replace it with a reality show or reruns of a stronger show. But a show like Modern Family, it's getting rerun throughout the summer. Do you have to cut new copy for that constantly? Or do they ever get to reuse copy?

Howard Cogan: They once in a while will reuse copy, but very rarely. You know, the curse of Modern Family is the show's hugely successful, but that means they don't have to promote it as much. I mean, you know, it's like Funniest Home Videos has been on for 25 years. Have you ever seen a promo for that? They're like, everybody knows it's on, you know? So they're trying to save these dramas that are, you know, the network is riding on, and that's where— the money is on these 1-hour dramas that they're banking everything on. So, Modern Family, you know, when it started, was huge. I mean, I was reading stuff that was, you know, on gas pumps, in the back of your seat rest on an airplane, and TV, and everywhere, and millions of these promos. And then it sort of dwindles over the years. As of now, it's just like, oh yeah, don't forget Modern Family's on, and this week it's blah, blah, blah. You know?

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: So, a lot less volume on a show that's, established and successful because they don't feel the need that they have to promote it as much.

Ryan: Sure, that makes sense. Give us a feel for your daily grind. You know, literally you wake up, you get into your studio there. How long are you speaking for? How much copy are you doing? How much, how much stuff you doing during an average day?

Howard Cogan: It varies. I mean, 5 years, 6 years ago was very difficult because when we're— however many years ago when we had like a Jack in New York and Chicago, I was still doing work with CTV. I think I moved out to, you know, probably almost 10 years ago, I moved out to the West Coast in LA. And, you know, then I would have to, you know, I'd have East Coast TV guys calling me at 6:30 in the morning. They have edit suites and they need promos, and I can't even see straight. I am not usually an early riser.

Ryan: Right.

Howard Cogan: And then West Coast TV guys could be looking for you as late as 9 or 10 o'clock at night. So, those days used to go really long when I was doing that. I no longer work with CTV. So I don't have to worry about that. I don't seem to do a ton of stuff on the East Coast, so my days don't start as early as they used to. So, you know, I can get up now, go for a run, go to the gym, do stuff in the morning, and then, you know, hit the ground running late morning or after lunch is where the bulk of my day goes, sort of, you know, between noon and 9 at night.

Ryan: And are you still— I know you're still on a number of Jack stations, you know, you're still on plenty of radio. Do you have enough of that where you're constant— well, not constantly, but you're doing radio copy every day?

Howard Cogan: Yeah, there's very few days that go by where I don't read something for some station, especially with Jack, where you have to sort of be topical and stuff arises that they need. Yeah.

Ryan: Well, and a lot of the Jack stations, there's no jocks. I mean, I think on a few of them they've added jocks, but generally you're the talent. I mean, you're the one who has to say whatever they need to say.

Howard Cogan: You're the only one that can say that, and they need you. So there's usually something Sometimes more copy, especially out of LA where they like to be very topical. And they're always right, the Olympics are coming up while we're recording this and they wanna be on top of that and so forth.

Ryan: I like to give people a little sense just so they can compare percentage of your work in general, not daily, but just in general, radio versus TV versus, we'll just say other. Where are your dials lined up right now?

Howard Cogan: Is that by time or revenue? I don't know.

Ryan: You know what? Why don't you give me both? Or however you want to answer that question.

Howard Cogan: I mean, I think the bulk revenue is still radio, I'd say.

Ryan: Oh, okay. Actually, I was about to say I would assume it's TV. So no. Okay, great.

Howard Cogan: Yeah, it's tough. I still think it's radio. Time probably still tips more Jack than the TV stuff. But you're talking to me in the summer when not much is happening.

Ryan: Yep.

Howard Cogan: So, you know, in the fall that may be a different story. It does, you know, it varies. I mean, if TV gets busier, then the radio is less, you know. So it does vary and it's a moving target. But as of this moment, I am doing more Jack FM work than I am doing television work in the summer of 2016.

Ryan: Great. Good. We'll put a stamp on that. What about other? I know you do some commercial work. I've seen I know I want— I can't remember. I'm sorry. It was so memorable, I promise, but I can't remember what it is. But commercial work, industrial stuff, narration, etc. Audiobooks, film trailers.

Howard Cogan: I do LendingTree for television. That's a campaign that started a few years ago. It's kind of funny. It's got a little puppet and stuff, and it's a cute little campaign, and I do a sort of really dry voice tag on the end of that. I'm not the voice of the puppet. I'm just the tag guy. So there is that. Yeah, I mean, I haven't really done industrial stuff. You know, I wondered— I tried to— somebody told me, hey man, go on Voice 123. It's really good. And I think I got kicked off of that after my first audition. So I think the guy gave me 1 star and I'm gone. I'm done. So I think my career—

Ryan: Oh, no.

Howard Cogan: I don't know if— no offense, but I don't think it gets much lower than that. And it's like a car dealership going out of business or something. You know?

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: Like, anyway.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: And you might make $200 by the end of the month if you're lucky.

Ryan: Or you might make $50.

Howard Cogan: Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan: You might lose $300 on the deal over the course of a week.

Howard Cogan: So that part of my career may be over already, but, —

Ryan: I think you'll be okay.

Howard Cogan: I'll focus on the other stuff. But you have to reinvent yourself, and that's— a guy like me, that's where it's difficult, because, you know, they know you from one gig and what you do on the radio and How do you suddenly become the next voice of Hard Knocks and replace Liev Schreiber or something like that? How do you do that? And you gotta get in the studio, and you gotta constantly work and try and reinvent yourself so you're not a one-trick pony all the time.

Ryan: I guess I feel like I could— assuming you worked at the skillset side of it, I feel like that narrative work, that kind of Hard Knocks type of work, I feel like you could be real good at that, but you haven't really put any effort into that stuff just yet.

Howard Cogan: I, you know, once in a while I'll read, you know, I remember I had an agent once who gave me like the history of Jesus on the History Channel. I'm like, come on. Like, you think they're gonna go, hey, we should get the Jack FM guy to read this? You know? I mean, even if I could somehow sound like Sir Laurence Olivier, you know, they would still like Google me and go, come on, seriously? If they find out it's this guy? You know, so, sometimes your gig can play against you and, and, and hurt you for that. And other times, look, they're not aware. They don't listen to Jack FM. They don't care. And they're like, yeah, this is what we want and you're the one we're hiring. So, it's a— it's— there's no one way and no one rule in this business. It's all over the map.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. I told you I wouldn't keep you, too long. I always like to just check in. How are you for time? You want me to wrap this up with a couple minutes?

Howard Cogan: I actually do have a session today. I do have a session in a few minutes, but yes, I can speak for a few more minutes if there's anything left for me to say. Sure.

Ryan: Oh yeah, there's— well, I know you're technically savvy. We don't have to get into the total nerd speak, but I mean, generally speaking, are you a Mac guy? Do you record in Pro Tools, or what do you like to use on that side of it?

Howard Cogan: I used Pro Tools a long time ago. It was overkill for voiceover. I don't mix anything. I'm just really recording my voice. So I got rid of that years ago, and they were just horrible to deal with. at the time trying to, you know, I think it was even before Avid took over, and it was just, yeah, you know, you had to call the guy, it's like $40 a minute, and he's like, did you try this? You know, it was like, come on, seriously?

Ryan: Did you restart?

Howard Cogan: Yeah, reboot, reinstall everything, and then tick tick, like $500 later, I still can't start Pro Tools. So I'm done with Pro Tools. I use Twisted Wave, which I love. It's like $75, works on your iPhone and your computer. Yes, I'm a Mac guy. I switched from PC to Mac many years ago, just when I didn't want to be an IT guy every day. I just wanted to turn on my computer and everything to work. So I'm— but, you know, I'm using a Mac Mini and a big one of those old Cinema Display. Well, not so old, but a Cinema Display.

Ryan: Sure.

Howard Cogan: And I use the Apollo, which is— which I love because all the processing is done on board with the Apollo. So your computer really doesn't do much work. And then I can process everything with plugins as I send it out live when I'm doing, you know, ISDN sessions and stuff. Everything can have the noise gate and processing on it. So I like that.

Ryan: Do you have multiple setups if you're doing TV work or radio work or whatever, or do you generally have one mic chain and that's how you're gonna sound and that's easy and good and you go?

Howard Cogan: I used to be like, when I first started this, I'd be like, hey, I gotta get this, look at this Neumann broadcast mic. would change the mic every week, and it drove everybody nuts. And I learned very quickly, you know, get something good, set it, and forget it.

Ryan: And stick with it.

Howard Cogan: And stick with it, because as you know, as a producer, it would just probably drive you insane if the guy sounded different every week.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely.

Howard Cogan: And then, and then, you know, once I had one setting at Fox. There was one mixer who just wanted everything really clean. They didn't like any processing, and I would send them something Pretty flat, but generally 99.9% of the time, the way you hear me now is what I send out.

Ryan: Cool. just a mic. Do you have a particular mic you're using?

Howard Cogan: Yeah, the 416, the Sennheiser 416 shotgun. And the reason for that is it's a directional mic. If you ever take it on the road, you're not going to pick up as much room noise. Those Neumanns, you need to build a $10,000 room at least, you know, to be able to have it quiet enough for the room. So the 416s are great. They're what they use in television for dialogue. Ernie Anderson at ABC was the first guy to use them years ago for promo and all of that, so they're pretty ubiquitous in the industry.

Ryan: He'd sit in the room with the engineer and voice right there. And there's a couple of famous YouTube videos out there, but yeah, absolutely. The— what was I just gonna say? Oh, the other thing about the 416, as you mentioned, when you travel, you got to bring your rig. They're very rugged. They travel very well.

Howard Cogan: Yeah, and I have 2 just in case one day airport security says, you know, it looks like a bomb and you can't bring it on. Bring it on. So I'm like, well, now I'm out of business. So I need a micro— you know, so I have a couple of them just as backup because it's what I do for a living. But, and if something ever happens to it. But yeah, I have a basically a backpack full of stuff ready to go. I can pick it up and walk out the door.

Ryan: Yeah, that's great. A go bag for the VO. Awesome. let me, let me kind of angle my final question for you. I normally, I would leave it wide open, but, in terms of coaching or increasing your own abilities, that kind of a thing, I'd love to know if you Do you have just sort of one key piece of advice in that area that you have found that has been very helpful to you that you'd like to pass on to the young up-and-comers?

Howard Cogan: I mean, there's a couple of things. Yes, coaching can always be helpful, and I think you really do need another set of ears, especially most of us now in a generation, you know, working in our room, in our homes by ourselves, where you don't always have another set of ears on things if you're not on an ISDN or, in our case, IPDTL session. You know, with somebody else, you need to know. I mean, you could read something and go, yeah, that sounds perfect, awesome, goddammit, I'm good. And then the other person hears it and goes, what the hell are you doing? So, you do need, you know, coaching, and another set of ears is absolutely important.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Howard Cogan: And as far as advice, you know, people starting in voiceover, I, you know, here's the simplest advice I ever got. It was, somebody said, dude, you already know how to talk. You know, what are you doing? Like, it— you know, a lot of times we work too hard. Like, when you speak to your friends on the phone, you already inflect properly, you say the words properly, you sound natural, you sound normal. Suddenly you pick up a piece of copy and you start sounding like some kind of freak.

Ryan: Yeah.

Howard Cogan: And I think people need to remember that in their heads, that you already know how to speak. Just bring your spin and the way you speak. Say to yourself, how would I say this? And then read the copy.

Ryan: Wow, I like that. It never ceases to amaze me that I'm nearing episode 100 and I still get fresh new pieces of advice to end these things every single time. It's great.

Howard Cogan: I love it. Well, hopefully, you know, hopefully it helps. Not too much though, because I don't want to lose all my jobs.

Ryan: Exactly, exactly. HowardKogan.com, easy website to go visit some of your stuff. information about you, contact info. They can try and reach out to you there. Did you want to pass on any other— I don't know, are you like a big Twitter guy, Facebook guy, whatever guy, Snapchat?

Howard Cogan: I play with all of that stuff. I mean, I look forward— I'm gonna start making some fun YouTube videos in the future. I've already done some dumb little things. We play with some comedy stuff on the web. Yeah, I mean, I have no follow— I mean, I have my friends on Twitter and my friends on Instagram and stuff. But, you know, you sure, if you want to follow me, I mean, once in a while I remember to tweet something, you know, and I follow a lot of people on Twitter and all that stuff. That's where, you know, I love all of that social media, but I just, you know, I don't participate probably as much as I should.

Ryan: And I'm looking you up, H. Cogan. Okay, Twitter @HKogan.

Howard Cogan: Yes. See, that's how long I've been on Twitter. I actually got my first, you know, my first initial and my last name.

Ryan: Yeah, and your last name, I mean, it's not Smith, but it's— there's other Cogans out there. So cool. Yeah, that worked out nice. Hey Howard, man, I appreciate the time. You were just a blast to chat with. And I just know when I talk to some guys that I could talk for a couple hours, you know, there's a lot of stuff we could dive deeper in. But thank you for opening it up and sharing all that with us.

Howard Cogan: My pleasure, Ryan. Thank you for having me.

Ryan: Real quick outro today. Only to just reiterate his website, howardcogan.com. Howard C-O-G-A-N dot com. Check out more of his demo work and read a little bit more about what he is all about. H Cogan on Twitter at H Cogan. That's pretty much where he wants you at. So anyway, thanks one more time. Just a quick thanks to Howard for his time. A very busy man. And then again, if you're just really wanting to keep listening. Chad Erickson will be the next guest, so look forward to that as well. And then I'll do some preview episodes for the Imaging Days coming up in early October. All right, thanks. Bye.

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