Episode 121: Josh Goodman

Announcer: The Producers, featuring the most respected international talent in the world of audio production and voiceover. Radio, TV, film, and online. In-depth interviews and industry insights, putting you on the inside. This is The Producers Podcast with Ryan Dreen.

Ryan: Hey, it's new podcast time. Thanks so much for checking it out. I've mentioned this before, this is take 42 on the intro. Let's see if I can get it right. I could probably stop now and edit, but no. 3 things to mention. Oh, you know what? First, thanks again to Brian Cooney for doing that intro for me. I really enjoy it, which is why I've just kept using it for, I think it's been years at this point. Could probably update it. producerspodcast.com is a URL, yes, but everything goes back to ryandreen.com. So I say that to quickly mention, if you ever want to reach out to me, I get probably 1 or 2 emails emails a week from random people around the world saying, hey man, thanks for that podcast, it's cool, it's helped me with this, that, or the other. Or, hey, can you put me in touch with so-and-so? I really enjoyed that particular episode. And I'm happy to connect people as well. So feel free to reach out to me anytime. Just go to ryandreen.com. I've got my contact info pretty clearly. There's a form you can use. You can also email me, whatever you want to do. Also, I listen to a lot of podcasts and every one of them is always doing what I'm about to do. I don't think I've ever done it before. If you can rate the show, on iTunes. I suppose that would probably help the exposure and the rankings and all that stuff. I don't like to do a lot of the self-promotion stuff, but I guess it's kind of mandatory. So if you get a minute and you can rate, just any whatever— I'm not telling you how to rate it, but whatever rating you want to do on the iTunes there or any other podcast platform you use, it would be very much appreciated. Obviously leaving a comment is also nice, you know. Thank you if you do that. I don't think that was too gross for me to do that. I'll try to mention that from now on because I probably am, as a professional podcaster— yeah, I don't believe I get paid for this. So as an amateur podcaster, I probably am supposed to be saying that from time to time. All right, let's get to the show here. Josh Goodman is the guest. He is a versatile voiceover artist. real quick, you know, commercial, radio imaging, TV promo, in-show narration, eLearning, industrial, audiobooks, and many more. you can learn a lot more about all that he is doing at his website, jgvo.com. Very solid URL, I must say. Josh Goodman Voiceovers, jgvo.com. Like I said, a lot of demos there. You can also find them on the socials, @JGVoiceover on Twitter, facebook.com/JoshGoodmanVoiceovers. A heck of an asset to me. I've become friends with him over the last couple of years. I've reached out to him with questions. He explains stuff very well, he talks about his path, and I think, you know, most people in the voiceover industry should find this one pretty valuable. You can, you know, sort of compare your own war stories to how Josh has gone about it. If you're young, I think you're gonna learn a lot about dos and don'ts and how to succeed. Also, if you're in radio and you're one of those people that's thinking, huh, I wonder when I'm gonna get blown out, or I want to expand my horizons, this one should have a lot of value to you. So I thank Josh for being on the show with me. Let's hear a really solid Buck 30 demo featuring a lot of different styles of voiceover and then get to the interview with the one and the only Josh Gooden.

Josh Goodman: How do you describe life at 4,000 meters? Comfortable. Know when you're acclimated. Pulse Ox on the fēnix 5X Plus from Garmin. This super sea barrier ranks in a league of ambitious new engineering wonders that are bigger, faster, taller, and more advanced than anything ever constructed before. Planting trees isn't the only thing we can do to clean our air and water. and make the climate more livable for people. Nor is it the only thing we can do to rebuild our communities, reduce crime, and stir the imagination. But it just might be the simplest thing. Hey you! A bowl of shut the fuck up is also gluten-free! Why don't you add that to your diet? You suck, man. Public service from 102.7 The N. Nice man bun! It's a very aggressive form of cancer. A brilliant surgeon— If we do nothing, she dies. Faces an impossible task. This is a highly experimental treatment. I didn't spend a billion dollars to have people tell me no. Can a tech genius's risky solution save a life? We're going in. New Pure Genius, next Thursday. And crank up the AC, 'cause things are heating up. No, seriously, turn up the AC or this shirt's coming off. You don't want to see this dad bod. I'm home for the summer. Country's hottest hits all summer. US 105.

Ryan: All right, we're very excited to be joined by this guy because I've now known him a while. He's become a real asset to me. You know, he's humble, he's nice, he's talented, and he's very well-rounded. And his name is Josh Goodman. Josh, thanks for joining me on the show, man.

Josh Goodman: Hey man, I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for asking me, I appreciate it.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so I did use the term well-rounded because to be totally honest, you know, we've only known each other now for what, a little over a year, maybe, maybe 2 years?

Josh Goodman: Maybe 2 years, 2 or 3 years. I mean, I know of you, I've known of your podcast. I listened to it a lot. But, yeah, we've known each other face to face only about 2 years.

Ryan: Yeah, and I think the first thing I gathered just from talking to you is, hey, that dude is well put together and clearly well-rounded in the voiceover world. Like, your, your gig isn't just, you know, announcer or commercial VO actor. You're into a lot of things, right?

Josh Goodman: Correct. And that's, by design. I, I like being able to do a variety of work, and I think being diversified is critical to be a good business person as a VO talent. If you're, you know, it kind of goes against a lot of people's thoughts of, hey, you got to focus on one thing and do it and pound it into their heads. And I think that's great, but it does not work for me that way. I like the fact that I have some radio stations, some TV stations, audiobooks, e-learning, commercial narration, and promo, and It all plays a role in my whole portfolio of work, and I like it that way.

Ryan: Yeah, and I'm gonna get into probably, well, almost all of that throughout the next, I don't know, 30 or 40 minutes or whatever, but I was joking before the show, and then I just skipped right over it, but I'm gonna give you a title, and I asked, you know, what would officially be your title at this point? You know, freelance voiceover, eh, what does that sound like?

Josh Goodman: Right.

Ryan: Sorry, someone just messaged me something that looked horrible. When I really quickly glanced over, I saw a word that looked like hospital. it wasn't. Okay, apologize. Anyway, so I'm gonna call you the CEO of Josh Goodman Voiceovers. what all does that entail for your business? Who else is in the company with you? How about that too?

Josh Goodman: There's me and myself, and sometimes my dog Minnie sits in the, in the office with me, but that's about it.

Ryan: Good, good, good.

Josh Goodman: So it's just me.

Ryan: I got the same thing.

Josh Goodman: Yeah, so you— I mean, anyone who's doing this as their full-time gig knows that they are everything, and you have a team of people around you like your agents and You have coaches and maybe some tech help, but you are really not only the CEO, but you're your own coach. You're critiquing yourself in your auditions. You're your own marketing executive. You're constantly networking. You're your own IT person. When your computer goes down or the ISDN is not working, you have to diagnose and fix problems on your own. And man, I'll give you a little ratio that I kind of have now that I've done this for a while. I think there's a 40-40-20 mix of being successful in VO, and any one of these areas that is lacking will come to bite you in the rear end. But it's 40% talent and training, that's the study, and that's the practice, and that's the craft. 40% business, and 20% tech, meaning studio acumen.

Ryan: That's interesting, 20%. It's funny, I would always normally start elsewhere in this, but I've been thinking about that lately, at how lucky we are, those of us that even have just a small amount of knowledge, where if a fire starts, we can put it out ourselves and not let the day get away from us.

Josh Goodman: Absolutely. And if you're lacking that skill set, it's going to cost you a gig somewhere down the line. I'm not saying you have to be some whiz, but that's why it's only 20%. But it's important. You got to have the basics.

Ryan: 20% is a lot though.

Josh Goodman: It is.

Ryan: I'd say 20% is a lot, and you're right. It actually is that important, but 20% is a lot.

Josh Goodman: Not to trump the creativity and the performance, that's obviously really important, but I know a lot of people that make a lot of money in voiceover that are just great hustlers and spend a lot less time on their training and talent, unfortunately, but they work the system and they have good clients and they market the hell out of themselves and they do very well. So the business part of it, in my opinion, is just as important as your—

Ryan: Talent.

Josh Goodman: your training and coaching and your craft.

Ryan: This might sound like a— I don't know, not cool, but okay, there's, there's people that you go, whoo, are they really that good? You know, you can kind of sit on the sideline and judge them, be like, yikes, I'm not really hearing it. But then you know the amount of work they're doing. Yes, is insane. And it is because that— yeah, you're right, that hustle, that the business side is as important As the talent, I guess.

Josh Goodman: I would totally agree. And what would I say about that? I mean—

Ryan: Not you, by the way.

Josh Goodman: Well, hard work trumps talent in many cases. There's a lot of very talented but sometimes lazy individuals that may not make it in this business. And a lot of times, I hate to say it, but a lot of some of the work, the e-learning work, the corporate narration work, sort of the down-and-dirty work of VO.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: Where a lot of the VO work is.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: Clients just want reliable, clean, quick audio. And they obviously don't want you to suck, but they would rather hire someone that is reliable, quick, and clean than wait 4 days to hire Matthew McConaughey to voice their video. I know that sounds crazy, but that's, that's what they want. They got to turn it around fast, and your reliability and availability is gonna trump Some magical read sometimes.

Ryan: And tell me your opinions on this. I found— I didn't know this before I really started getting focused on, you know, voiceover as a whole. So not getting— not so worried about booking the humongous commercial gigs or building my radio station roster, but just getting paid to speak. You get into the corporate, the e-learning, industrial, that side. Those clients tend to have a good amount of money, Oh yeah. Their most important feature does seem to be, like you said, reliability, and also they don't wanna keep having to chase down new talent.

Josh Goodman: Correct.

Ryan: They wanna find their person and go, okay, I got that sorted.

Josh Goodman: Yes.

Ryan: I'm just gonna keep going back to Ryan every time now. I don't wanna have to go find someone else.

Josh Goodman: I mean, you have to put yourself in the mindset of the buyer, right? If I were a marketing person at some company, I needed someone to voice a video. Do I wanna go to an agent and pick up the phone and call and audition all these voices or go on Voices123, and listen to 100 auditions, 75 which of them are going to be terrible, or do I just want to go to Ryan, who I know is going to get it done and do a great job, and I'd just rather give him my business because I need to get it done and fast?

Ryan: Yeah, because Ryan turns it, or Josh turns it within the hour that I need, or today, or—

Josh Goodman: Yes, yes. And, you know, obviously your read does come into a big play with it. I'm not saying you should ignore that, but the business part of this is really important. And if you're All talent and no business, I think you will not do well.

Ryan: So, boy, we're going down a lot of paths that I want to get into, but let me get into your background just a little bit, just to let people know. I think you've been a little more around the block than I had originally thought. You've had a lot of history, especially in the radio world too. Maybe bullet point it, where you started, a couple of big gigs along the way.

Josh Goodman: Sure. I wanted to be in radio from a very, very young age. My first radio experience was probably when I was 10 years old. My mom got me— you remember those Mr. Microphones?

Ryan: Oh, yeah.

Josh Goodman: Okay. My mom got me one of those for, like, my 9th or 10th birthday, and I thought it was the coolest thing. And I took the little wire antenna on the bottom of that thing and made a 100-foot antenna in the attic and started a pirate radio station for my house.

Ryan: That's awesome.

Josh Goodman: And I was bitten by the radio bug, and I loved it. And so I started in radio when I was, hmm, 12 or 13, volunteering at a little college station in upstate New York where I grew up, Saratoga Springs.

Ryan: Okay.

Josh Goodman: And worked my way from there. At 16, I was doing afternoon drive at WFLY in Albany, which was a big, big gig. I would leave school and go on the radio.

Ryan: That's crazy.

Josh Goodman: Yeah, it was crazy.

Ryan: That's a legit— wait, that— FLY, that's still a legit station today, right? Still, man.

Josh Goodman: Biggest top 40 in Albany.

Ryan: Yeah, and they had a 16-year-old doing afternoons?

Josh Goodman: Todd Pettengill was the morning guy and I was the afternoon guy.

Ryan: Todd Pettengill was?

Josh Goodman: Yeah, totally.

Ryan: Oh, that's crazy.

Josh Goodman: Yep. So worked there, I worked in Burlington, Vermont, then I went to college. I went to college here in Denver. I did nights at KS104 full-time while I was going to school.

Ryan: What college did you go to? Because I lived in Denver for a while.

Josh Goodman: University of Denver.

Ryan: Oh, you did? Nice.

Josh Goodman: I went to DU and I did nights at KS104. That's how I— I graduated college with no debt because I was working full-time.

Ryan: Yeah, you know what?

Josh Goodman: It was crazy.

Ryan: We were talking about this just this last LA trip, the Worldwide Radio Summit, how you were actually at KS104, which makes me know a little closer to how old you are.

Josh Goodman: Right, totally.

Ryan: Because anybody who knows Denver radio knows they moved that A long time ago. We're a stronger 107.5 frequency. Well, whatever. Plus, you're a dude, so I don't really ever feel bashful about asking about your age.

Josh Goodman: Yeah, we don't have the uptightness about the age thing as much, I guess.

Ryan: But anyway, so ballpark that. You're doing nights, would you say nights on KS104?

Josh Goodman: Yeah.

Ryan: In '94 or something?

Josh Goodman: '95? '94 is when I graduated, left KS104, went to Philly at Y100 during the alternative heyday in the mid-'90s.

Ryan: Absolutely.

Josh Goodman: From Philly, I was in Charlotte at The Link, then kind of took a little break from radio for a little while because I had been doing it for so long. At— in my late 20s, I was like, oh my God, I've been doing this forever, which is crazy.

Ryan: Yeah, you were burned out by your late 20s, and you had like a 15-year career at that point.

Josh Goodman: Took a little break, got back into radio, did mornings in Seattle, and then came back to Denver and Worked at Alice for a little bit, and then eventually mornings at KTCL, which was my last radio gig. And I was the morning guy there for 8 years, which is a killer alternative station. That was—

Ryan: KTCL, for anybody that doesn't know, is— it's not just because I was in Denver for a while and that's kind of my hometown alt station. It's very well respected across the country.

Josh Goodman: Absolutely.

Ryan: Very well respected.

Josh Goodman: And it still kills it, man. That's the, if not the biggest biller in the iHeartRadio cluster now? It was at one point, and it's— so they make money and they—

Ryan: That's Keeler, Roger Keeler.

Josh Goodman: Oh yeah, he's great.

Ryan: And he's becoming legendary, I would say, because he's been there for like 55 years now. I mean, he's— but he's— are they just Channel 93.3? Is that what they actually— that's all they say now?

Josh Goodman: Yes.

Ryan: okay, sorry, what years were you at KTCL?

Josh Goodman: Oh man, started there in 2004, 2005.

Ryan: Okay, that's after I left town.

Josh Goodman: Yeah, and then, was there— no, wait a minute. Yes, 2004, 2005, and I left in like 2011-ish.

Ryan: Did you go by just Josh, or what did you do on the air there?

Josh Goodman: Goodman. They called me Goodman, which was not my choice of a name.

Ryan: I would come back to town at least once a year, you know, to visit. My folks are still there.

Josh Goodman: Oh, cool.

Ryan: And then, you know, I'd have— especially at that age in my life, it was a wedding 5 times a year.

Josh Goodman: Right, exactly.

Ryan: So I'm sure I heard you, but okay, so we get to 11. Is this when you actually left radio and went full-time voiceover?

Josh Goodman: So I, after I did mornings in Seattle, I, the station disbanded and I was let go and I wanted to come back to Colorado. So I got a gig at ALICE and I was doing part-time there and eventually segued into the production director, gig at Entercom in Denver. And that's kind of where I started exploring voiceover and production and audio recording. And I— so I started dabbling in that on the side. It continued through Alice. And then while I was doing mornings at TCL, I picked up a coach and started booking gigs locally. And I kind of put a little studio together. And then I got my big break in voiceover, which was HBO Sports. I was the voice of HBO Sports for 2 and a half years.

Ryan: Really?

Josh Goodman: It was a great gig, and it was union. And that was the gig that I started making some pretty good coin, and it allowed me to leave radio and start VO.

Ryan: Okay, and that was in 2011?

Josh Goodman: I was doing HBO like 2010, maybe?

Ryan: '11? Okay, so you did that while you were also working.

Josh Goodman: It was kind of a transition, yeah, it was a transition, right?

Ryan: Is this— not to say, hey, did somebody take your job, but is this basically what Liev Schreiber ended up doing? voicing the stuff that he ended up doing?

Josh Goodman: He was doing some of the promos. He still does their shows, but I was doing all the promos for HBO Boxing and the promos for, on the next 24/7, or on the next Real Sports. So, that's— I was doing the promos and he was the narrator. And Liev Schreiber is— man, he's one of my idols. I love the guy. I've never met him. I don't know him, but. I certainly look up to him.

Ryan: I just think, if like when I watch an episode of Ray Donovan and then later on I flip over and I see him narrating, it just—

Josh Goodman: You don't realize it's the same guy, right?

Ryan: No. I can't hear the same guy. I know it's the same guy and I can't hear the same guy.

Josh Goodman: Well, he has developed a character for his narration that is— this is what great actors do. They can dive in and out of a character on a dime. And if you ever heard Liev Schreiber talk normally, he sounds like a— he's got a super thick New York accent.

Ryan: Yep.

Josh Goodman: But when he's in narration mode, he puts on his character that he created for whatever it is that is so good, and he dives right into it, and it's awesome. And that's the art of voiceover. Your character for Hot AC is different than Alt. That is different than an audiobook. That is different than a corporate narrator.

Ryan: Do you feel like you do that? Or, you know, maybe not to his level, or maybe to a better level, but do you feel like you're actually in different characters when you're doing different reads in different formats?

Josh Goodman: Yes. To a certain extent, yes. And that's the art of voiceover, man. You can't just— you can't pile on the same read for every script. And every story is different. It's all about a story, right? So how are you telling the story? Who's telling the story? You know, is it Liev Schreiber's narrator character, or is it his Ray Donovan? They're totally different, but it's the same dude, and he doesn't think too much about shifting between one or the other.

Ryan: Well, go a little more into that, because I think it's more than just different read, because I think most people would know, like, yeah, when I'm voicing something for, you know, an alt station I have, it's gonna be different than country.

Josh Goodman: Correct.

Ryan: Or a commercial client.

Josh Goodman: By design.

Ryan: It's gonna be different reads.

Josh Goodman: Yeah.

Ryan: But I think there's different— it's different to say actually, you know, you're a different character. Like, there's a mindset. It's more than just changing your voice or your delivery. There's actually a character you need to step into.

Josh Goodman: Well, so I'm saying it from a character point of view because too often we think about changing our sound. And you want to say, hey, I'm gonna go on a higher, happier read here. Or— it's not about sound. It's about putting yourself into the story of whatever script it is and changing the environment around you in your mind. And then naturally, what you say will sound differently. As opposed to making your sound different. Does that make sense?

Ryan: Absolutely. I was going to ask you, I've had— tried to be— I've been expanding myself and trying to, you know, do more and get more coaching.

Josh Goodman: Yeah, the best coaches will tell you that, right? It's not about sound. It's about changing the story.

Ryan: Well, I was going to say, in that environment thing you just mentioned, I hadn't ever really thought of it like that. But if you, in your mind, close your eyes and imagine if you were actually not just doing a commercial for sour cream, but if you were the person, where would you be? You need— so you do that kind of stuff. You see where you would actually be for whatever read you're doing.

Josh Goodman: Yes. And your ability to just kind of, you know, click between different characters and scenarios and having a lot of things in your toolbox without getting too attached to one or the other makes you a very versatile and top-notch voice talent. And for radio people, it's a little hard. I came from radio and I had to— yeah, you know, I coached I still coach all the time. And it was a hard thing to undo some radio stuff. But, you know, you're still a character on the air. When I was doing mornings, I was a dude that had a wiseass attitude, and I had a sarcastic sense of humor.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Josh Goodman: And the character worked really well for KTCL, which is very different than my character that was a night guy at KS104, which is a chirpin'. They're still characters. I didn't realize I was doing these characters, but that's— That's what it is. And you're playing those roles. It's very natural to me because it was still me, but that's what you do.

Ryan: I didn't want to gloss over that. You said, I coach, real fast. Do you mean you coach voice talent right now?

Josh Goodman: No, I don't. I mean, I'm always being coached.

Ryan: I work with coaches. Okay, gotcha. You're being coached.

Josh Goodman: Yes, all the time.

Ryan: I thought I might have misheard you. I didn't want to just let—

Josh Goodman: No, no, no, no.

Ryan: I wanted to get back to, because I think a lot of people, maybe struggle isn't the word, but they're concerned with, or they might get thrust into this situation. you're on your own. When you're lucky enough to decide to do it, you know, how did you decide? I know you mentioned HBO, but I'm sure it wasn't just, oh look, I got this HBO gig, I'm quitting my job. It was probably a lot more thought out. How did you know it was time to go on your own?

Josh Goodman: Okay, so this, this happens all the time now because, now, a lot of people ask me about how to, you know, make the break from whatever they're doing into voiceover, which I'm happy to help, and it's, it's been awesome path and there's a lot more cool things to experience.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: But the first thing, man, is you cannot quit your day job. Don't go into voiceover out of desperation because your radio gig evaporated, because it's a lot of work to get to a point where you can, you know, make this thing work as a source of income. It's, it's not something you can dive into overnight. It's the old Malcolm Gladwell number of 10,000 hours. It takes 10,000 hours to really do it. And so there's no shortcut to it. You just have to pay your dues. I did not quit my day job. I built up my business very slowly and steadily. And then I knew it was time to go because I was— my voiceover stuff was doing better than radio. And I could have gladly stayed at the radio station forever. I'd probably still be there. But this was a better opportunity, a bigger opportunity.

Ryan: And there's some value to be placed on, you know, No commute, saving money on other elements, working from home.

Josh Goodman: Yes.

Ryan: Freedom.

Josh Goodman: Yes.

Ryan: There is value to those things.

Josh Goodman: Absolutely. But you have to make it work. You know, I have 2 kids, a wife, so I had to do health insurance. And am I really doing this from home? And I got to put a studio in so that the kids won't bother me when I'm recording.

Ryan: If you don't mind me asking, and tell me if you do mind, but was it like Did your— I don't know if this is a nice thing to ask, just for other people's realities.

Josh Goodman: Sure.

Ryan: Did your wife have an income or is she a stay-at-home mom raising the kids?

Josh Goodman: No, she works. She's in the music business and she's a band manager and a publicist. So she worked, which was helpful. And she was also an entrepreneur at heart. So she was excited for the move.

Ryan: She got it.

Josh Goodman: Yeah, she got it. And the payoff is bigger, but it's scary. It is scary. I totally get it. I was there. And I was like, what am I doing? I've got a great gig at an awesome station. I'm doing really well. Why am I leaving this? Well, I don't know. It just— it— I was— I was pushed into it because it happened.

Ryan: Yeah. So, but that makes sense. You also had a plan and you played the slow game on it and you figured out exactly when the correct time would be.

Josh Goodman: Yes.

Ryan: It's tough for some people 'cause they get sort of thrown out the door and then they're like, okay, great.

Josh Goodman: They get thrown out the door and then panic and like, oh my God, I'm gonna do voiceover. And I don't think they realize how much work is involved in building a business. You are starting a business. Not only are you having to work on your own craft, but this is a business and it's a hard deal.

Ryan: It's come up on this show a number of times and I absolutely had tons of it. And now that I'm working with a couple coaches, I'm being told that while I thought I had gotten rid of most of my horrible radio junk in my deliveries, that actually there were other things that I didn't even know I had that I needed to work on. So the problem is when you're in a desperation mode and you think, I'm gonna dive into voiceover because holy crap, I've been talking for the last 20 years, it's tougher. So don't quit your day job also probably means don't just, like, go get another job of some kind to sustain you so that you can do the voiceover stuff correctly. Correct.

Josh Goodman: I would totally agree with that. And let me just say this, man, radio does get a very bad rap, especially in the voiceover world. I don't know how many times you get an audition that says, no DJs, no announcery, blah, blah, blah.

Ryan: No radio sound.

Josh Goodman: No radio sound. However, as I've been in this business now for a while, there are things that being in radio comes— there's a lot of assets to it. I had the pleasure of doing some promos for a CBS show last year called Pure Genius. It was awesome, and the turnaround is really quick, and things move fast. But they are doing promos, as you know, talking to other VO talent, live to the sound.

Ryan: Yep, live to picture.

Josh Goodman: With the SOTs, live to picture. And so, man, it brought me right back to radio, being on the air and talking over the intro of a song and knowing when to stop talking. And my timings were ingrained in me because of radio. Someone else might not have that natural ability. So while radio is looked down upon in many ways, there's a lot of things that will come into play that are good down the road, you know?

Ryan: That's good. It's probably enough on that topic because I have hit it on the show quite a bit. I just hope people know that, and they shouldn't get discouraged either. No, it's absolutely— I had— I stumbled into a demo of mine from like 2004 when I was really starting to just focus. I was on the air, but I was focusing a little more on production and voicing a lot of stuff. I mean, I almost threw up on myself. It was so terrible.

Josh Goodman: You mean, just the stress of it?

Ryan: The read that I thought was good then.

Josh Goodman: Oh, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying. Yes. 'Cause you— well, that means you've grown. Look at the progress you've made.

Ryan: Yeah, no, no. I know I have, but how could I have been so bad? But the point is, anybody can— if I could lose the amount of horrible nonsense I had in my read back then, then anybody can do it.

Josh Goodman: I— listen, that's a good thing. I can't even listen to myself from— 5, 6 years ago because I've grown and evolved. I'm like, I can't believe I was actually supporting my family with that nonsense. Yeah, but that's a sign of growth. That's good. You're— it means you're progressing, right?

Ryan: I hope so. I think so. The work is good. That— oh yeah, well, it ain't about me. So back to you. I know that you already mentioned there's a lot of facets of the voiceover industry you're working in. Can you break it down by percentage for us just to give us an idea, just for you, what your workload is like?

Josh Goodman: Percentage of income or percentage of time?

Ryan: Both, actually.

Josh Goodman: Let's say percentage of income. All right. So, I'd say my biggest area right now is commercial. Commercial gigs pay very well, especially if you get a good retail account that has 40 or 50 tags associated with it. And I like commercial work. It's good. I have great relationships with some of the agencies here in Denver. I'm kind of their go-to guy for a lot of stuff. I have agents around the country, and I like to do that work. How do you do that? Yeah, how do I do that?

Ryan: How do you think you do— how do you be the go-to guy?

Josh Goodman: You have to earn their trust and respect, and they'll know that I'm reliable and can get their read correctly and give them some alternative takes. Sometimes agencies will use me as a pitch guy instead of having Susie from accounting do a dry read on a client pitch. They'll say, hey, Josh, do you mind doing this? And then sometimes they book the gig and then I'm ending up as their voice, which is great.

Ryan: How does a pitch gig work? Do you get paid for that or are they asking you to do it gratis just in case it'll book?

Josh Goodman: Sometimes it's gratis. Many times it's paid at a much lower rate, a couple hundred bucks. But knowing that I want them to get the gig and then I want the client to just kind of go, yeah, that guy's good. Why don't we just use him?

Ryan: Exactly.

Josh Goodman: auditioning 50 people.

Ryan: Exactly.

Josh Goodman: And there you go. So there's— commercial's great. Commercial's my biggest area. I'd say second biggest area, probably corporate narration or non-broadcast narration stuff. Corporate anthem videos or those sort of things. There's a lot of that work out there. Radio affiliates right up there. I'm on a decent number of stations and—

Ryan: I know you are. Yep. And you're real quality in that. I like your style.

Josh Goodman: Oh, I appreciate it. And I love the radio imaging. Radio's still in my blood. I love it. I just signed up my biggest station a couple weeks ago, WTMX in Chicago, which is a big win.

Ryan: Oh, excellent. Very cool.

Josh Goodman: Love the affiliate work. And besides that, narration, in-show narration, stuff for Smithsonian Channel, Nat Geo, Animal Planet, Science Channel, the documentaries. And I love that work. I love documentaries.

Ryan: I've had auditions for some of that stuff. Is that generally how you've gotten that work, via agents, or— Yes, yes.

Josh Goodman: Yeah. There is a few local— the networks are not producing their own stuff most of the time. They're hiring out to these companies that make the shows. You'd be surprised, in your own backyard, there's probably a production house that is making stuff for one of the big networks.

Ryan: There's a couple here in Denver. Yeah, you're saying that to everybody listening in there.

Josh Goodman: Yes, I'm saying that you might be—

Ryan: You might be in Boise and there's— Yes.

Josh Goodman: Well, maybe not Boise, but I just worked on a show with Smithsonian Channel. And the producer was in Portland, Maine.

Ryan: Exactly.

Josh Goodman: They did a 10-episode thing for Smithsonian Channel, and it was great. So if you're in Portland, Maine thinking, hey, I have no opportunities up here, you're dead wrong, because there's a killer production company up there.

Ryan: How is Denver? I meant to ask this back a minute ago for the commercial market, because this is another topic that comes up often, is, you know, do you have to live in LA or New York or blah blah blah blah blah, right? How is Denver for as far as a commercial market?

Josh Goodman: It's good and getting much better because this town is growing so fast. I've lived here over 20 years.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: And Denver is just exploding. It's one of the places everyone is deciding to move to at the same exact time, like Austin or Portland or whatever. And companies are coming here and it's a young, happening town. And there's a lot of money and things going on here that wasn't happening maybe 15 years ago. There's a lot happening here.

Ryan: Where are you at, actually? You don't have to tell me your address, but I mean, generally speaking, where—

Josh Goodman: I'm in Park Hill, which is near the Denver Zoo, near the museum, pretty close to downtown, but it's a really—

Ryan: I was gonna say, you're in the city. I mean, you're not out in Littleton or something.

Josh Goodman: Totally.

Ryan: Is that advantageous as a talent? Are you able to get to stuff? Okay, maybe the first question is, how often are you even having to leave the house to go on auditions or work?

Josh Goodman: I mean, I do stuff in town. Not too often do I need to go to a studio, but I'd say once or twice a month I'll record at Rocky Mountain Recorders or Coop Studios in Boulder.

Ryan: I think that's where I'm at. I'm at about once or twice a month I have to go out and say maybe 4 times. Man, no, no, probably— yeah, I think you're right. It's probably when you average it out over the year, about 2 a month now.

Josh Goodman: Yeah, so it's not a ton, but it's good to be here, and this is a good town for it, but it's certainly not a majority of my work. But I like, again, You got to be diversified, man. If you have no studio and you're only doing stuff in town at the other recording studios, you're shooting yourself out of a lot of stuff. But having that ability to do Rocky Mountain Recorders or Coop Studios gives me an edge as well because I can go in person. So yeah, it's all about the mix, I guess.

Ryan: Is there any part of you— I know you have a family, you have children and a wife— but is there any part of you that thinks, boy, if If only I was living in LA, I could be doing blank.

Josh Goodman: I do think that sometimes. Being in radio, I've had the moving bug moved out of me. I've had plenty of places I've lived.

Ryan: You had it beat out of you, basically. You're done moving. Yeah.

Josh Goodman: I'm sort of done moving. Denver's a great place. If I were in LA in another lifetime, I do think there are some opportunities that I probably could take advantage of that I can't right now. It's not mandatory, and I don't have LA envy by any means. I think it's cool, but I don't know. Things are pretty good here.

Ryan: I grew up there, and I would never live there.

Josh Goodman: Did you really? I didn't know that.

Ryan: Yeah, well, until I was about 15, I lived in El Segundo.

Josh Goodman: Huh.

Ryan: It's terrible. I hate it there, but it's cool to go visit for a few days. No doubt. My sister lives there, but I— you shouldn't live in LA unless you're an actor.

Josh Goodman: I mean, you want to, you know, Hey man, I've got some good friends that just moved from Denver to LA. They're in voiceover and they are doing great. They're killing it. And the opportunities that have been opened to them are fantastic. And I'm happy for them.

Ryan: So they were— they're pretty clear about the fact that access is opening up more than it was when they were in Denver by being in LA.

Josh Goodman: There are certain genres of VO that are LA exclusive still. Animation being one of them. And if you want to do animation and you're not in LA, I'm not sure what to tell you there.

Ryan: Well, you could be in Dallas.

Josh Goodman: Could you?

Ryan: There's a lot of work here. A lot.

Josh Goodman: Well, that's good.

Ryan: There's 2 or 3 animation houses here that are massive.

Josh Goodman: But that's still— LA is still the hub of it.

Ryan: For sure.

Josh Goodman: And there's a lot of commercial opportunities that exist only in New York City for VO.

Ryan: Yeah, I had it— it was made pretty clear to me by another agent that a lot of the big commercial gigs, if you're not in New York or LA, they're just not even gonna look at you.

Josh Goodman: Well, I mean, I don't doubt that, but I've had some great success, commercial success, on national campaigns that I've done right here in my booth in Denver.

Ryan: I got booked on a national campaign from my Denver agent, and so I'm not necessarily agreeing with that agent. I'm not with, but that's definitely a thought though, you know.

Josh Goodman: No, I think it's valid, but you know, times are changing and they— that New York-only mode is slowly eroding. Same thing with the LA-only mode, but it's still somewhat valid, but not saying that that's all you have to do.

Ryan: I know that you— boy, this is gonna be a really massive gear switch.

Josh Goodman: That's okay.

Ryan: It kind of relates to this because The access is based on the— everybody's connected. Right now, we're doing this interview via Source Connect Now.

Josh Goodman: Yes.

Ryan: And I had a really bad experience with it a couple years ago, and I just didn't even pay attention to it for quite a while. But I mean, this is great, and this is what everybody can have. How much are you doing on ISDN though? And yeah, let's start there.

Josh Goodman: I still do quite a bit on ISDN. It is still needed. Thankfully, I can still get it at my house.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: In fact, man, my ISDN box, there was something wrong with it just 2 or 3 weeks ago. I had to send it back to Telos, and I was without an ISDN box, and it sucked. I had to go into Rocky Mountain Recorders twice to record something, and I had to use Source Connect, and some people don't use Source Connect, whatever. But I was without it, and it— and I did not like it. I'd say 3 to 5 sessions a week on ISDN.

Ryan: Who is still using ISDN?

Josh Goodman: Hmm. A lot of studios still use it, and ad agencies that use those studios still use it. So, some of the big networks still use it, but I think they're kind of going to Source Connect. CBS is starting to do Source Connect only. National Geographic Channel uses Source Connect only. They've kind of gone away from ISDN.

Ryan: Do you think of all the ISDN alternatives, from your experience— I know you can't speak for everybody, Source Connect seems to be what everyone's gonna be shifting to.

Josh Goodman: I have not used IPDTL. I know a lot of people like that as well, but Source Connect seems pretty solid to me. Yeah, and I don't know that I want to have 5 different things. I kind of just want one thing. It's ISDN, and then Source Connect is a close second, I'd say.

Ryan: Since I drove us over here to the tech side of the world, let's stay there. I believe you are gonna give me some studio picks.

Josh Goodman: Sure. Yes.

Ryan: what do you got going on in the— since I don't actually have them as we're speaking right now, but what do you have going on in your studio? Maybe starting with the microphone and the preamp.

Josh Goodman: So, I'm pretty knowledgeable with technical and studio stuff, and I love gear, and I love talking gear, and I love hearing what people have. Yeah. I have evolved and changed my philosophy over time, and I'm sure it will change again, but my current philosophy is Clean and simple. And that's the way I like it, and my studio sounds clean and simple. There's not 15 processors and things going through chains. It's a very clean and quiet audio chain. So I've got 2 mics. I've got my Sennheiser 416.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Josh Goodman: The shotgun mic, which I use for my radio affiliates and TV affiliate stuff. And once in a while, if I have a spot that requires me to shout or do something big and yelly, I'll use that. That's going into an Avalon 737, which is a pretty standard preamp that I have modified with some vintage tubes that kind of give it a really warm and fuzzy sound to it that really sounds so much better.

Ryan: Did you do it yourself, or did you send that out?

Josh Goodman: I did. There's this guy named— here's a little tip— there's a guy named Brent Jesse. He is like the— he's a tube aficionado, if there ever is such a thing. And you can tell him whatever preamp you're using and what kind of mic, and what kind of sound you want. And he sells vintage new stock tubes from the 1960s and '70s that have a sound that just doesn't exist with the modern stuff.

Ryan: Huh.

Josh Goodman: And it really has rounded out my 416, makes it really punch, just like the new tubes can't. So I've got that going into an interface, is an Audient iD22, which is really cool. It's a digital interface with a lot of routing options, so I can send sound to the ISDN and send it to Source Connect, and it's simple and very clean.

Ryan: How many input/output is that?

Josh Goodman: It is— well, I have it extended through a— what's it called? The fiber cable there, the optic, an optical. So it's got 4 inputs, but with optical it can have like 20. So I've got it extended into a little device that has extra inputs, which I don't even really need. I could probably get rid of that too. But my main mic that I use all the time now is a Neumann U87, which I bought this year.

Ryan: Oh, good for you. That's a nice cheap little guy you just grabbed out of China, right?

Josh Goodman: It's not cheap, and I was sweating it when I bought it, but like, you know what, this is what I do every day. Yeah, why not? Go for it, and it sounds awesome. And I find myself working less, meaning it's not as hard to do. It's very little things that you do in your voice get magnified and sound awesome through the U87. There's nothing like it.

Ryan: Interesting.

Josh Goodman: So I've found it to be a valuable tool because it helps me to work smarter, if that makes sense. And that is running into an Avalon M5, which is the solid-state Avalon, which then goes into the audience, and that's what I use. I run Pro Tools on an iMac.

Ryan: Okay, so you don't run the U87 through the 737?

Josh Goodman: I do not. I could. I just happen to have this M5 that I've had forever, and it sounds really good. It's clean and very simple. There's 2 buttons on the whole thing. The 737 is a little more, I don't know, intricate. It's a channel strip versus just a preamp.

Ryan: Right. Before I say something stupid, they both need phantom power.

Josh Goodman: Yes, correct.

Ryan: So you get your phantom power both from the Avalons?

Josh Goodman: Yes. And I'll tell you what people are switching to, and if I were starting a studio from scratch, I mean, the Universal Apollo is the bee's knees, and I would just probably get one of those and call it a day, man. Keep things as simple as possible. Yeah, that's what I use. Right, do you love it? I mean, it's great, right?

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. Well, I go through— I have the Manley VoxBox on the Unison channel, and I like the— I like what that's doing. But, you know, the sky's kind of the limit. I mean, well, whatever UA supports plugin-wise, you know, whatever they develop and put out in the world. So you can operate as if you're running through that device, and they've done those— what do you call it— like A/B testing. But, you know, they have the actual mic into the hardware, and plus you can travel with it and it sounds awesome. Yeah, yeah.

Josh Goodman: And yeah, you know, instead of lugging around a 737, which is impossible.

Ryan: Yeah, I mean, I don't think they have the Avalon 737 copied or cloned on the UA yet, to my knowledge.

Josh Goodman: Yeah, but you can do something pretty close.

Ryan: Oh yeah, no, I think— but people are screaming and yelling for that though, you know, like, come on, let's get some, let's go, this stuff is awesome, we love this Unison technology and these, you know, cloning these preamps. But, you know, a lot of VO people I know are like, come on, let's get that 737 going.

Josh Goodman: So, you know, I love the Avalon stuff, and I'm not— my audio chain is top-notch. I love it. But if I was starting a studio again, I'd probably do the Apollo. But my philosophy is you want it clean and quiet, and the Avalon is clean as clean can be, with the exception of maybe a Grace. But I like the sound, and I let the engineer and producer do the magic, not me.

Ryan: So I think the U87 is what, about just under $4,000? Am I right?

Josh Goodman: I got mine used, but they're new, they're about $3,300 or something like that.

Ryan: So you're talking about a, let's just call it $3,500 mic and then a $1K mic in the 416, and then you can also buy mics that are $100 and $200 and $300. What's your thoughts on that? Because people are gonna be listening and you always see it in forums and then, you know, you just talk to people. Yeah. And sometimes they get a little overexcited about dropping $4K on a mic, and then other times they wonder, well, why can't I just get this one for $200? So My 2 questions are, when is it right to spend $4K on a mic, and why can't someone spend $138 on a mic?

Josh Goodman: Okay, great question. And, you know, I've had my voiceover business for 14, 15 years now, and it started with a Shure SM7 into a Symmetrix. And for many years, I made a lot of money on that gear, and it was fine. If I had a U87 when I first started out, I don't know that I'd know what to do with it.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Josh Goodman: I've earned a U87 now because I've worked for it, and I have a perfectly quiet booth. And I can't imagine having this thing back 10 years ago. I wouldn't— it wouldn't have worked right. So build your studio in stages. The mic is important, and a shotgun's great, but it may not work for everyone. You know, Rode makes some fantastic mics that are way cheaper that might be a good fit for you. And you can—

Ryan: you talking about their shotguns, or you talking more maybe don't get a shotgun first?

Josh Goodman: Shotgun would be fantastic because it— you can use them in an imperfect room. Unless you have a perfect room, do not get a Neumann. But the Rode NT2 or whatever it is for $300 sounds pretty damn awesome for the price.

Ryan: I think they have 3 levels of shotgun.

Josh Goodman: They have a couple levels of shotguns too. And you know, you don't have to spend $1,000 on a shotgun. Yeah, I love the Sennheiser. But hey man, if you don't have $1,000, I get it. Don't mortgage your house for gear. But again, going back to something I said earlier, your studio is 20% of this whole mix of your VO business, and you need it to be clean and quiet and consistent. So however you're gonna do that for your space, you know, that's how you— that's what you have to do.

Ryan: Talk about the space, because to me, I didn't fully understand how important that was, even though I thought I was treating my room correctly. It's really important. And what are some things to think about, like early stages of your career?

Josh Goodman: Yeah.

Ryan: Yeah. What were some of the things you did?

Josh Goodman: Early— we moved about 3 years ago. It's still in the same neighborhood, but it was an old house from the 1920s. My studio was in the basement right below the toilet. And when the kids were home and I was recording, there was a no-flush rule because, you know, Thing flushes and your mic picks up everything. So, you have to have the space. And there's 2 aspects to the space: keeping sound out, like the lawnmower from the neighbor, and keeping reflections to a minimum. So there's— that's what the foam and the padding does, and the wool blankets or whatever you're doing. So, I have a booth now that's fantastic, and it's a big booth with lots of windows, and it doesn't feel like a coffin. And that's what I use every day, and that keeps it out and also keeps it quiet inside.

Ryan: We'll see pictures of it. I just haven't seen them yet. But let me think here. When you started off, though, something I like to say to the— I've got a few, like, extremely young, I've never been paid to do a voiceover job in my life type people that I've met in some of the audiobook stuff I've been doing and coaching there. So anyway, since I'm a little more on the tech-savvy side like you, they tend to ask me questions like that. And the first thing I'll say is, you have a closet with clothing in it.

Josh Goodman: That's perfect.

Ryan: Start there.

Josh Goodman: Yeah.

Ryan: And I did— were you ever a guy in the closet, voicing in the closet?

Josh Goodman: I—

Ryan: Or did you not have to do that?

Josh Goodman: I don't know, you know, well, when I go on the road and record from hotel rooms, I guess technically that's what I'm doing. And we can do that now, man. I've got— I take the 416 with me and a little Yamaha mixer that costs $150 and it sounds pretty damn awesome.

Ryan: Is that Yamaha, your audio input?

Josh Goodman: That's my mic preamp and audio input. It fits in my backpack and it sounds great. And here I am talking to you through a $3,000 microphone and $1,500 preamp. But man, this little setup sounds great. And I record from the road all the time and I've recorded stuff for CBS and HBO on this little setup. In— from the road. So you just make a little pillow fort and that's what it is. And we can do that now. And we're expected to do that now. That's part of the, you know, cost-benefit of doing VO. You need to be available. And so you need to be recording from the road for sure.

Ryan: Are you in the mindset that, you know, you're doing very well and like I said, you know, I'm a fan. I've seen your well-rounded nature and you have a lot of work, but where you're sort of scared to take days off? Do you feel like you can take actual full, like a week off and just say, hey, I won't be available for a week?

Josh Goodman: It's, that's probably my challenge right now, but it's hard to do that. Yeah. especially with affiliates, they are always needing something and I get it, man. I was, cause I worked in radio for a long time. What, your VO guy's not here? We can't do this promo. You know, I get it, but you have to be able to take time off. Otherwise you'll make yourself crazy. Especially if you have 100 radio stations or 100 TV stations, how can you not take time off?

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: But it's hard.

Ryan: That's the double-edged sword.

Josh Goodman: It is. It is. The golden handcuffs, man, right?

Ryan: Yeah, exactly. You want to get to the I have 100 station point, and then suddenly I can never take a day off in my life, and I'm gonna be burnt out, and I'm gonna go jump in the ocean.

Josh Goodman: Totally, totally. And you do want to get to that point. It's not— it's a first-world problem for sure, but But it is an issue. I'm challenged with that, absolutely.

Ryan: Let's see here. I do have a couple more topics I want to be sure I get into. Let me ask you this. It's just something I'm curious about, because you seem, like I said, you're a pretty connected guy. You've been around the block. Aside from any piece of audio gear, what is something you cannot live a single day without? You can't get through a day without this.

Josh Goodman: Like a piece of studio gear or furniture?

Ryan: No, not studio gear, not audio related.

Josh Goodman: Ah, not audio related. Well, I'll tell you. You have to continually stay hydrated, especially as you get busy. Denver is very dry, and when you get dehydrated, it's very hard to rehydrate yourself. So I drink a shitload of tea. Coffee, I love coffee, but too much coffee kind of dries out your cords. So, I drink green tea all day, and I have this little Sunbeam Hot Shot, and I can get hot water in 90 seconds, and I use it all day.

Ryan: So, you drink hot tea all day?

Josh Goodman: Yes, I do.

Ryan: Okay. Yeah.

Josh Goodman: So, that's, that's what I can't live without because it's, it's good for my throat. And instead of boiling something on a tea kettle, this thing plugs into the wall, you pour water in it, you get hot water in 90 seconds.

Ryan: That's— you just keep your studio there with you?

Josh Goodman: Oh yeah, I do. I have a— my studio's in a little carriage house, so it's off of my main house. It's got a sink, and I'll show you some pictures.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: And it's my own— it's my little office away from the house, so it feels like an office.

Ryan: When you guys got the house, and that was already there, I'm assuming, and you saw that and went, oh, okay, there we go.

Josh Goodman: Yep. And it's very hard to find because this is an old neighborhood, and And Denver doesn't want you to build these things.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: So this is grandfathered in from 100 years ago.

Ryan: Did you do a full gut and build the studio you wanted out there?

Josh Goodman: The building was here, and I operated in it for a little while. It was kind of a makeshift apartment, so it had plumbing and a bathroom. Gutted all that.

Ryan: What do you call that, a mother-in-law suite?

Josh Goodman: Carriage house. Yeah, a little mother-in-law apartment.

Ryan: Okay.

Josh Goodman: Gutted it, put in a really big, nice booth, and I've got a nice sit-stand studio desk from Argosy, and I've got my gear in there, and it's great. And a little sink with my hotshot, my Sunbeam hotshot for $20, man. I would recommend those.

Ryan: Yeah, good for you. I think for me, having, well, a long commute— and it's not as long as a lot of people in the world, I realize that, but I hate the commute anyway— that's my most jealous part, is your commute.

Josh Goodman: Uh-huh, yes. Well, on the downfall, it's— VO can be isolating work, so I try to get out and hang with my friends and make dinners and lunches and that sort of thing. And I didn't realize how much— how important that is when I first dove into this. You really have to do that for your own sanity.

Ryan: Yeah, I've had a number of friends that are— that, you know, that have been on their own for quite a long time, very successful. But I get that whether they say it point-blank or you just sense it, they need to get around people more. Yeah, you know, yes. And it's It's, it's hard because sometimes I think people don't realize that they do until it's almost too late. Then they're— they've, they've devolved into like a mode of insanity, and they didn't realize it happened. But it's because they've been on their own for, you know, 7 weeks, and now they're on Facebook writing crazy stuff. And you're just like, dude, someone needs to just yank you out of your house, bring you to a coffee shop, and have a talk. You know, just, just be around other people.

Josh Goodman: I agree. And That's kind of why I like going to these conventions and VO Atlanta even, which I went to in March, which was just great to get out of my house, hang with some and commiserate with other VO people and see some talent that I haven't seen in a long time, friends of mine. And it was great. Just your art, the art of conversation. How are you going to be conversational if you're not having conversations, right? You got to get out there and practice that, I guess, put it in practice.

Ryan: Well, And also, when you do get booked to go to a studio session, I—

Josh Goodman: You kind of like it, right? You love it.

Ryan: Yeah, well, of course you like it, but you can't be that crazy freak that comes in and just makes the room uncomfortable because you haven't seen other people in so long. You don't know how to do it. And these people are working a day job. They're busy. They just need you to come in and do the work and not be insane. So yeah, get out there in the public, folks, especially if you are already working from home. And if you don't think you've gone crazy yet, that's cool, but you might already have. So maybe it's, you know—

Josh Goodman: Maybe we can start a little PS— we can make a PSA. Should we do that?

Ryan: Yeah, I'm gonna hire this guy Goodman to voice it, and it'll be effective, that's for sure.

Josh Goodman: Do you find yourself talking to yourself in the morning?

Ryan: Do you think this voice is actually your own voice in your own head?

Josh Goodman: Yeah, totally.

Ryan: you're— so you were kind of taking me to the next step, but I want to talk about it You know, in a wider form, marketing, get out there doing the hustle, but you also get out there and go to a lot of conferences, maybe not a lot, but I've seen you at many. I don't know, how do you approach that? I mean, you gotta budget it in, you gotta figure out which ones to go to. What are you looking for when you decide, all right, I'm gonna go to that conference?

Josh Goodman: Well, which, I mean, it depends on the conference, and they all have different strategies. The radio, WWRS is really natural to me because I was in radio for so long. So it's like I see all these people that I've known through the years, and radio is just comfortable to me. The TV affiliate conference, ProMax, that I'm going to next week—

Ryan: Yep.

Josh Goodman: —is a little bit more of a foreign world, but I have a few TV stations that I voice. And my first year going, I was kind of just getting the lay of the land. Now I go and I know people, and they kind of see your face and they get comfortable with you. And so it's, it's good, and you're You're planting new seeds for future business and you're also reinforcing the ones that you already have. It depends on the conference, man. VO Atlanta, there's not clients there, but there's other VO people there to just kind of get out of your studio.

Ryan: So there's a difference, I'd say. There's things you go to where you're simply there to learn, just get better at the craft.

Josh Goodman: Correct. There's business pitching ones, right? There's different ones like that. DevCon. It's an e-learning conference in Las Vegas in October. I have not gone, but I've considered it. And if you want to go, that's a totally different strategy when you're talking to—

Ryan: What happens there?

Josh Goodman: Well, it's, people that create educational software, and e-learning is a big, big part of VO. It's a growth area of VO, unlike maybe promo or radio affiliate or trailer, which are much more—

Ryan: Mainly commercial.

Josh Goodman: Or even commercial. Those are much more glamorous, but man, that's not where the growth is, in e-learning and audiobooks and some of these things. And it's— for me, it's a good portion of my business. It's not a huge portion, but I like being able to do that work. And if you want to go hustle and get more of that work, you need to go meet the people making the courses.

Ryan: So that DevCon would be more of potential clients at a conference that you could then roll into, and hopefully— you got to be— you can't be socially inept. You have to have the ability to walk up to people and have an interesting conversation and not be—

Josh Goodman: Yes. And you may be surprised at how much those people, those buyers, are wanting to talk to voice talent instead of— again, they'd rather just go to Ryan or Josh or whoever than audition 150 voices. Again, 80% of them are not good. They'd rather just go to you to get the job done. So they're probably— they need what you're offering, I think.

Ryan: Yeah, yeah. So I think that's a, that's a good outlook on that. What about, I wanted to talk markets, agents, and marketing agents and coaching here. Maybe we can bounce around a bit, but maybe start with marketing. Have you found that you have to do a lot of it? You know, what's your mindset on marketing yourself?

Josh Goodman: Good question. I mean, at the basics, everyone needs a website, a one-page, very simple setup that showcases your work where people can go and see that. Preferably not one that you've made yourself on Wix. Get a little help and figure it out. I mean, use a graphic designer and make it look slick.

Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Josh Goodman: Marketing, I do some marketing with All Access. I've been running some banner ads with them. And in the TV affiliate world, there's a lot of competition. And stations, by and large, do not wanna take huge risks on who they're putting on the air. You might be a better fit for the station or a better talent or have a better read, but at the end of the day, these guys are pretty risk-averse. Radio has gone through a lot, so has TV, and they'd rather go with the tried and true than some new, unproven young talent. So the banner ads and the marketing in that business, I think, is just part of familiarizing yourself with buyers so that they get more comfortable with your name, And we'll eventually pick you if the time comes up, hopefully.

Ryan: Do you know Steve Stone pretty well?

Josh Goodman: Yeah, I know Steve. He's a great dude. He is a— and he's a good marketer, man. He has a lot of radio stations, a lot of TV stations, and he didn't get there by accident.

Ryan: I don't know if he said this on my podcast that I had. It was a long time ago I had him on. But yeah, I have big respect for him. But he's the one that sort of—

Josh Goodman: Oh, here comes my daughter. This is Audrey.

Ryan: Oh, hey, Audrey. Say hi.

Josh Goodman: Hi. What's going on, babe? even with the, with the studio in another house, this is what happens.

Ryan: Well, it is summer vacation. Yes. Yeah. But Daddy, there's nothing in the dairy box.

Josh Goodman: I know, I didn't, I didn't order any. Are you sure?

Ryan: Yes. Okay. Have fun.

Josh Goodman: Can I say hi to Minnie? Yep, and then close the door, please. Thank you. Sorry to interrupt.

Ryan: Are we leaving that in the pod— I think we need to leave that in the podcast.

Josh Goodman: It's okay, man.

Ryan: This is part of Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, there's nothing more, what is it like to be on your own after radio than that interaction right there?

Josh Goodman: Yes, they should be in school, but they're not. Right? So Steve Stone, yes. And he's built a reputation for his brand and his voice. And the marketing is part of it. Obviously, it's the read and his relationships. That's the most important. I respect what he's done.

Ryan: What he told me, I asked him randomly, maybe even years after we actually did a podcast, as we've become friends, maybe internet friends, but whatever. He made it pretty clear that the banner ad campaigns and those types of things are just more brand support.

Josh Goodman: Brand support, exactly.

Ryan: You're not gonna really book a whole lot of jobs directly. Like a PD in, I'll just say Boise again, isn't gonna click on the banner ad and go, there we go, that's my guy.

Josh Goodman: No, but it's part of building familiarity, right?

Ryan: Right. Like you said.

Josh Goodman: Yes. And again, stations— I feel radio and TV have been through a lot. They're risk-averse. And so they want to know that they're making the right call with their voice. It's such a big part of the station. And your brand awareness is all part of that.

Ryan: You mentioned already that you get coaching. I would say, especially if people that are in radio and either looking to just diversify, they don't wanna lose their day job, but they wanna start building their voiceover business, or for other people that just wanted to hear a talented voiceover guy talk about the business. How do you know if you're getting a good coach? How do you choose a coach? I mean, 'cause there's a lot of people that even could get referrals and it ends up, it's like, I just dropped $180 on a session and boy, that wasn't worth it.

Josh Goodman: There are, you know, As the curtain gets pulled back from the VO world, there are more and more people doing it, and there are more and more people claiming to be coaches.

Ryan: Oh yeah.

Josh Goodman: And I use the word claiming.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: There's some great coaches out there, but I know that there's some— maybe they aren't even aware that they're not good coaches, but they should not be coaching, or they're using coaching to supplement their lack of bookings.

Ryan: Right.

Josh Goodman: But I am very lucky to— I research my coaches, and I vet them, and before I decide to work with someone, And I'm very loyal. I work with someone for a very long time. And I've not had any coaches that I've worked with that have steered me down a poor path. For many years, I worked with David Lyerly. He's no longer coaching, but he is a friend and someone I really look up to, and he helped me immensely for a long time. I coached with him for, I don't know, 3 or 4 years. He's—

Ryan: I've heard his name come up a bit. This might be a dumb question that I should know. Why is he not coaching anymore?

Josh Goodman: He now works at a video game company in Los Angeles, and he directs voice talent for their new characters on the video games.

Ryan: Oh, very cool.

Josh Goodman: So it's an awesome gig, and he's missed, but he's got a sweet gig.

Ryan: Yeah, great.

Josh Goodman: So I worked with David for a long time. I have worked with Maurice Tobias. She's wonderful. I'll see her in Vegas next week. She's really, really good. I work with Dave Walsh currently, who is Also fantastic. Can't recommend him highly enough. He's got the heart of a teacher, man. I really trust him, and I'm a pretty cynical dude, so for me to say that, that means something.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: Dave's a good dude. And, you know, some people just don't jive with certain coaches, so, you know, they may not like Dave Walsh or Dave Lierle because their personalities don't mesh with them. But, you know, you got to find the right fit. They're a psychologist, they're an advisor and a coach, and they're gonna do a lot. They're really important, I think.

Ryan: Yeah. You don't just get one lesson and suddenly you're the best commercial VO actor on the planet.

Josh Goodman: No.

Ryan: What kind of a time commitment, a financial commitment? You know, we're talking once a week, once a month, twice a year?

Josh Goodman: I mean, everyone's different, but for me personally, I record all my sessions. I do them once every 3 to 4 weeks. I listen back to them and I take notes and I physically write down things. And I take some time to think about it and to let it vacillate in my mind. I can't do once a week. It's too fast to absorb.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: So, I like to coach, listen back, put it into practice, and then get another session going. And you have to do that all the time. All the time. There's too many people in VO and you have to be competitive.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: And I think it's important. But again, with a good coach who knows what they're doing, not a— someone who just set up shop last weekend because, I don't know, they felt like they were coaching.

Ryan: Or they hadn't booked a gig in 6 months.

Josh Goodman: Exactly right.

Ryan: Buy some food, right? Hey, I guess I'm a coach today.

Josh Goodman: Totally.

Ryan: Yeah, I just want to bring up agents real quick. You know, we're represented by one of— maybe 2 of the same one. I can't remember who your Denver agent is, actually.

Josh Goodman: Radical Artists.

Ryan: Okay, so not— we don't have the same Denver. Agent. But anyway, that's another thing that I ask a lot of different people on this show about, so maybe I'll just get your take. Do you have to have an agent? When do you get an agent? You know, give me some of your thoughts on it. I don't want to be trashing anyone, obviously.

Josh Goodman: No, for me, agents are important, and it's something I've worked very hard to get in with all the agents I have. I have an agent in Minneapolis and Denver and Atlas Talent in New York and LA. And they're a big part of my success, and it, you know, I had to work to get in there. Do you need an agent? No, especially with— again, you can say what you want about the pay-to-play sites, but I know plenty of people that have a pretty good business going with just the pay-to-plays, and they're like, why would I need an agent?

Ryan: I need to clarify what that is for people that don't, but we're talking voices.com and Voice123.

Josh Goodman: More Voice123 than voices.com, but you know, They all play their role.

Ryan: Yeah, I was gonna say, if you go to the internet, you're not gonna see very nice things about them. In fact, depending on where you are on the internet, I'm not even allowed to say their website URL.

Josh Goodman: Really?

Ryan: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Josh Goodman: Well, whatever.

Ryan: There's some vitriol out there for this agency.

Josh Goodman: There is definitely vitriol, but there is vitriol because they're not going away, man. All these pay-to-play sites are not going away, and they should be part of your mix. I will say that I booked a commercial that ran during the Super Bowl on Voices 123. So there's pretty high-profile work on there if you know where to look for it.

Ryan: Well, that's pretty interesting.

Josh Goodman: Yeah. TV or radio? TV. Aired during the Super Bowl with Peyton Manning for Universal Orlando Resorts. And it was a cool ad, and it only ran a couple times and whatever. But the point is, it's not going away. And do you need an agent? I think it's helpful, and they play a great role. And there are certain kinds of work that only an agent can get you into— promo and narration and trailer. But, you know, the pay-to-plays are a great way for people to get their chops going and practice and practice auditioning hundreds of times and build your business and build that foundation so that you are not— you know, so that you have work coming in. You're creating an income stream.

Ryan: How do you get an agent?

Josh Goodman: How do you get an agent? Okay.

Ryan: Well, let me actually interrupt before that. What do you do— so this would be something somebody could ask. I get it that you have your Denver agent. I think it's very good to have a local agent because you are gonna book a lot of work locally.

Josh Goodman: Yes.

Ryan: New York and LA with that— I mean, I love Atlas. I just love them.

Josh Goodman: Yeah, absolutely.

Ryan: It's shown me a whole new world about what representation can do for a talent. Absolutely. So I get that too. Why Minneapolis?

Josh Goodman: Well, I think there are a lot of regional hubs around the US where companies are headquartered that there's a lot of local work that you'll miss out on if you do not have these regional agents. Minneapolis is the headquarters of Target, 3M, Cargill, Best Buy, General Mills, and these companies are not always going to New York and LA or Chicago for their voice work. So Minneapolis is kind of this regional hub where there's great work. Atlanta is another one. So is Seattle. There are these hubs around the country that you can dive into with the agent world that have great local relationships that your New York, LA national agents might not have. I think it's important.

Ryan: And it's very true that A lot of major national campaigns are booked and produced and hired in a market like Denver or Dallas.

Josh Goodman: Yes.

Ryan: Not New York and LA.

Josh Goodman: I booked— I was the voice of ADT Home Security for 3 years, booked through my Denver agent. That was a national gig.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: I booked Raymond James Financial, still doing that ad, through Minneapolis. The agency was in Minneapolis. It's a national ad. they didn't go to New York, they didn't go to Chicago. They— the agency was in Minneapolis, so that's where they went for the work.

Ryan: So there's a lot of reasons to diversify just, just in the markets where you have representation. But it's also— it's not automatic. Like, no, you know, I have agents in a few cities, but there's a lot, a lot of them that turn me down.

Josh Goodman: I said, you know, there are because they've got too many voices. and with this whole voice bank voices.com thing, they are trying to figure out their how they're gonna get work for these people too. So there's a little bit of turmoil right now in the regional agent world, I think.

Ryan: And people should know, you know, if you send your materials to any agent and they say, sorry, you know, you're not right for us right now, they really truly shouldn't take it personal.

Josh Goodman: That is true. Listen to their roster. You are going to represent— your voice is gonna represent a color on a color wheel. And if they already have 5 shades of red or beige or whatever, They don't need another beige. They need a green.

Ryan: And it's not fair to their current talent either.

Josh Goodman: That's true. If you were on their roster and they were hiring a bunch of yous, you would be pretty pissed, to be honest with you.

Ryan: Well, yeah, it would be— it wouldn't seem right. No. You know, and they— so. Yeah. Well, hey, you know what? You and I are gonna chat in real life a lot.

Josh Goodman: Yes, we are.

Ryan: You know, we didn't get to audiobooks though. Just give me your 30-second why audiobooks might be something VO artists wanna focus on even in their side time.

Josh Goodman: Audiobooks are not for everyone. It's the marathon of the VO world, whereas promo and commercial are the sprints. So are you a sprinter or a marathon runner? I personally know that audiobooks is a huge growth area of VO, and right now they do not have enough narrators for the amount of content that's coming out. So instead of competing in the promo world, maybe an audiobook is not a bad idea. Again, they are a lot of work. It's rewarding work, but it's a lot of work. But they need these narrators, and I think it's just a huge growth area. And if you're interested in being diversified and you like that medium, you should absolutely study it and dive into it because it can be lucrative.

Ryan: And if you go on your own, that would be something that can fill time.

Josh Goodman: Yes, exactly.

Ryan: When you're not working. And also, just to be really clear, you're absolutely right that there literally is only one, maybe 2 areas of voiceover where they don't have enough talent, but by far audiobooks is number one.

Josh Goodman: And there's some great audiobook conferences. I've not been to one of those. There's one in New York City every year.

Ryan: Is that where they have the Audies?

Josh Goodman: Yeah, the Audies and the Audiobook Awards, and it's a very specialized area of voiceover.

Ryan: Yeah.

Josh Goodman: But I think you can— I know people making a full-time career out of just audiobooks. They have earned their way up to being one of the go-to voices for, say, Simon Schuster, and the gigs are largely union, so you can get on the union health insurance, and there's a lot of good things about audiobooks. It's just a lot of work, and it's not for everyone.

Ryan: Yeah. Cool. I didn't want to let the interview end before we brought that up a little bit, because I, you know, you've taught me a lot about that. that side of things.

Josh Goodman: It's good to have that skill set, man, and you're enjoying the work, right?

Ryan: Absolutely. Well, it is. You do truly feel like you're not necessarily a voice artist. You're maybe an actor who happens to not be seen. And it just— there's something— there's a different feeling in that. It feels like you've accomplished something totally different.

Josh Goodman: It's true theater of the mind, right? You're the— you're playing every role and you're the director and you're doing the whole thing, but you're also sometimes editing it and You know, it's, it's, it's, it's a different skill set, but I think it— yeah, having done several audiobooks, it's made me better in other areas of VO for sure.

Ryan: Great. So you can do this in 30 seconds. I know I'm actually hurrying now because I know you're right up against a session, but give me a quick piece of advice for young people that are deciding whether or not they're gonna get into voiceover. What should they focus on, or what should they do?

Josh Goodman: You need to love this craft and study it. You need to get a home studio and practice. 10,000 hours is the rule from Malcolm Gladwell. And you should just— man, you have to coach and give yourself some time to grow into a business and build a business. It's not going to happen overnight. Don't quit your day job. But do this on the side because you love it, not because it's got a massive money payoff.

Ryan: This isn't a lottery ticket.

Josh Goodman: This is not a lottery ticket. And I would just read a lot. I mean, you know, in addition to coaching and studying, I read a lot of inspirational literature. Napoleon Hill and Ernest Holmes and all these things, these books that can really help you know that you're following a dream and it's gonna take a lot of perseverance and persistence. And that's the only— there's no shortcuts to it. There's just no shortcuts. And you're gonna need a lot of everything behind your back to make this work.

Ryan: For sure. Yeah, that's great, man. real quick, jgvo.com. I mentioned it in the intro, but again, there's the website. Get to that. check out— you just do great work, you know. You present yourself very well, in person and online. I really dig your style. I'll have other links. Well, @JGVoiceover on Twitter, and then facebook.com/JoshGoodmanVoiceovers, but I'll post all those links on the website.

Josh Goodman: Thank you. Thanks so much, man. This was a lot of fun. I'm a fan of your podcast and it's very cool to be on it now.

Ryan: Yeah, I appreciate you taking the time. So anyway, one final thank you. Josh Goodman, thanks for joining me.

Josh Goodman: Thanks, buddy. Take care.

Announcer: Contact the show, contribute your opinions, see additional content, or simply stay connected at producerspodcast.com.